Northern Capacity

[Mr Mean]

Does anyone have a rolling list as to the passenger capacity at northern from the end of last year to now?

Towards the end of last year we had pacers and a steady stream of 195s and 331s entering service. Since New Year as pacers have been withdrawn the number of short forms, cancellations and just full up trains seems to have increased. I've seen this through my own experience and the countless posts on social media.

Has the capacity available dropped off a cliff and if so, when is it going to get better?

 

[northernchris]

I don't have any data but things have deteriorated massively since the December timetable change. I checked JourneyCheck this morning and they were 6 separate diagrams uncovered across West Yorkshire due to more trains than usual needing repairs. Obviously this causes problems on later services, more so if they have also had a reduction in capacity

 

[js1000]

Someone calculated the carriage numbers gained and lost a while back on another thread but can't remember exactly. IIRC it was drop from in carriages once the new Pacers are gone and new rolling stock is introduced. However it's difficult to compare, for instance that doesn't take into account the Pacer's smaller 15m carriage length against the 24m 195/331s so it's difficult to compare. Likewise the 319s have 4 carriages but are only marginally longer than the 323s which have 3 (80m vs 70m) etc.

 

[superkev]

Someone calculated the carriage numbers gained and lost a while back on another thread but can't remember exactly. IIRC it was drop from in carriages once the new Pacers are gone and new rolling stock is introduced. However it's difficult to compare, for instance that doesn't take into account the Pacer's smaller 15m carriage length against the 24m 195/331s so it's difficult to compare. Likewise the 319s have 4 carriages but are only marginally longer than the 323s which have 3 (80m vs 70m) etc.

As I said on another thread unless Northern step up there maintenance and therefore availability it's difficult to see how they can manage once the remaining pacers and 153s are withdrawn.
Perhaps they should import someone from Wimbledon depot with its legendary reliability stats
I cant see releasing the remaining 19 195s from store (14) or awaited (5), or the 769s is going to make much difference either.
Some infil electrification that was "Graylinged" would be an obvious solution or, anyone got any spare dmus?.
I wonder how many dmus they require compared how many they actually have.
K

 

[ed1971]

As I said on another thread unless Northern step up there maintenance and therefore availability it's difficult to see how they can manage once the remaining pacers and 153s are withdrawn.
Perhaps they should import someone from Wimbledon depot with its legendary reliability stats
I cant see releasing the remaining 19 195s from store (14) or awaited (5), or the 769s is going to make much difference either.
Some infil electrification that was "Graylinged" would be an obvious solution or, anyone got any spare dmus?.
I wonder how many dmus they require compared how many they actually have.
K

Going back to the mid 80s in the days of first generation DMUs, the trains operating on the Southport line were at least 3 carriages long and 6 carriages were common. We have now stepped backwards with only two carriages on most services.

I would have expected that the electrification of the 8 mile stretch between Lostock Junction and Wigan NW would be a priority, as it would provide an electrified Wigan to Manchester route via Bolton and free up some DMUs.

 

[Mogster]

I don't have any data but things have deteriorated massively since the December timetable change. I checked JourneyCheck this morning and they were 6 separate diagrams uncovered across West Yorkshire due to more trains than usual needing repairs. Obviously this causes problems on later services, more so if they have also had a reduction in capacity

Journey Check is very unreliable. My daily Southport - Alderley Edge short forms haven’t been appearing on there mostly.What’s posted on Journey Check is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

The Oxford Road platform staff were announcing that “everyone will not be able to board this service” even before the short formed 16:21 Southport service turned up last night.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

Trainlogger has some good fleet lists, however it requires a subscription

 

[SuspectUsual]

Journey Check is very unreliable.

As indeed is the PIS on stations. Most recently last night 1737 MCV - LDS announced and displayed on platforms as 3 carriages and a battered 2 carriage 158 rolled in

 

[thejuggler]

There is obviously plenty of unit juggling going on.

Since introduction I have had 2,3,4 and 5 unit 195s running one particular service I use regularly.

 

[Mathew S]

I don't have any data but things have deteriorated massively since the December timetable change. I checked JourneyCheck this morning and they were 6 separate diagrams uncovered across West Yorkshire due to more trains than usual needing repairs. Obviously this causes problems on later services, more so if they have also had a reduction in capacity

That's interesting, because in my part of the world (Wigan - Manchester) the service has been vastly improved since December. And I mean vastly.158s on services that, previously, were often 150s or Pacers is a massive improvement. As is starting the Leeds and Blackburn services at Wigan which, it seems, has increased reliability massively.
To put it in perspective, I've not had a single delay repay claim since the timetable change. Pre-December, I was claiming three or four times a week.

Journey Check is very unreliable. My daily Southport - Alderley Edge short forms haven’t been appearing on there mostly.What’s posted on Journey Check is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

The Oxford Road platform staff were announcing that “everyone will not be able to board this service” even before the short formed 16:21 Southport service turned up last night.

Try the Commuter Train Check app on Android. I've found carriage numbers on there to be more reliable than journey check.

 

[S&CLER]

Going back to the mid 80s in the days of first generation DMUs, the trains operating on the Southport line were at least 3 carriages long and 6 carriages were common. We have now stepped backwards with only two carriages on most services.

I would have expected that the electrification of the 8 mile stretch between Lostock Junction and Wigan NW would be a priority, as it would provide an electrified Wigan to Manchester route via Bolton and free up some DMUs.

Given the extreme difficulty of electrifying into Wallgate, it wouldn't do much for destinations beyond Wigan, as presumably there aren't enough 769s to cover all trains on the Hindley lines. And starting some Hindley line trains from NW and others from Wallgate makes connections at Wigan more awkward if you have to change stations. You could easily connect at Hindley, but not everything stops there at present.

 

[Mathew S]

Given the extreme difficulty of electrifying into Wallgate, it wouldn't do much for destinations beyond Wigan, as presumably there aren't enough 769s to cover all trains on the Hindley lines. And starting some Hindley line trains from NW and others from Wallgate makes connections at Wigan more awkward if you have to change stations. You could easily connect at Hindley, but not everything stops there at present.

Enough 769s were ordered to cover the Stalybridge and Alderley Edge diagrams, I believe, as they were originally envisaged (i.e. interworked, and terminating in Wigan). Since December, there will not be enough to do both of those tasks. It makes most sense, I think, to use them on the Southport - Alderley diagrams since there's a lot of running under the wires. They are also, as @Mogster says, frequently short formed and overcrowded, so the increased capacity will be put to good use.

However, there is the rumour that the Southport - Alderley services will cease to be anyway as part of a proposed solution to the Castlefield Corridor debacle. Leaving aside the fact that there would again be no service from Southport to Ox Road / Picc, this would put a huge strain, capacity wise, on the 3-car 195s which operate the airport service.

The reality is that Northern is constantly running too close, or even past, the limit of what is achievable with the trains and the infrasructure it has. The only way to fix that is to invest in order to make it possible to run more frequent, longer trains, serving a wider range of destinations*... I'll keep an eye out the window for the flying pigs.

*For example, tonight I am having to drive from Wigan to Blackburn and back for a meeting, because it would take 2+ hours by train. The railway can't do everything for everyone, but local services in this part of the world simply are not flexible enough, and don't run early or late enough.

 

[S&CLER]

Enough 769s were ordered to cover the Stalybridge and Alderley Edge diagrams, I believe, as they were originally envisaged (i.e. interworked, and terminating in Wigan). Since December, there will not be enough to do both of those tasks. It makes most sense, I think, to use them on the Southport - Alderley diagrams since there's a lot of running under the wires. They are also, as @Mogster says, frequently short formed and overcrowded, so the increased capacity will be put to good use.

However, there is the rumour that the Southport - Alderley services will cease to be anyway as part of a proposed solution to the Castlefield Corridor debacle. Leaving aside the fact that there would again be no service from Southport to Ox Road / Picc, this would put a huge strain, capacity wise, on the 3-car 195s which operate the airport service.

The reality is that Northern is constantly running too close, or even past, the limit of what is achievable with the trains and the infrasructure it has. The only way to fix that is to invest in order to make it possible to run more frequent, longer trains, serving a wider range of destinations*... I'll keep an eye out the window for the flying pigs.

*For example, tonight I am having to drive from Wigan to Blackburn and back for a meeting, because it would take 2+ hours by train. The railway can't do everything for everyone, but local services in this part of the world simply are not flexible enough, and don't run early or late enough.

Today's RTT departures from SOP shows 3Z51 and 3Z52 Springs Branch-SOP and back STP workings. Could these be 769 training/test runs?

 

[S&CLER]

Today's RTT departures from SOP shows 3Z51 and 3Z52 Springs Branch-SOP and back STP workings. Could these be 769 training/test runs?

They didn't happen. A pity, because I went through the station after shopping at M&S, to see what, if anything, materialised. At least the 15:08 arrival from Stalybridge was a 4-car set.

I beguiled the time by counting the number of spaces in the station and NCP car parks that would have to be sacrificed if platform 7 were ever reinstated (e.g. for a Preston service). It comes to about 60, depending on the platform length desired, which is probably enough to rule it out, given the compensation that would be required for loss of revenue.

 

[Mogster]

However, there is the rumour that the Southport - Alderley services will cease to be anyway as part of a proposed solution to the Castlefield Corridor debacle. Leaving aside the fact that there would again be no service from Southport to Ox Road / Picc

And only 2 services to Picc from Salford Crescent per hour.