Northern cancellations getting worse

[Llandudno]

School holidays, presumably. A lot of staff on holiday and others may not want to work overtime due to e.g. childcare commitments.

But could you imagine Tesco, Wetherspoons or McDonalds allowing so many staff to take annual leave at the same time resulting in the store being closed early…?

 

[zwk500]

But could you imagine Tesco, Wetherspoons or McDonalds allowing so many staff to take annual leave at the same time resulting in the store being closed early…?

You don't need a year of training and an international license to stock shelves or pull pints, nor do you have such stringent fatigue rules.

 

[North-Valiant]

You don't need a year of training and an international license to stock shelves or pull pints, nor do you have such stringent fatigue rules.

Also you can't just get a load of 18 year olds to drive trains for the full time staff during their summer holidays away from uni

 

[td97]

355 full cancellations (covering today and tomorrow only) are currently listed on Journeycheck

others may not want to work overtime

Northern do not have driver RDW, which is a useful mitigation to cover short periods of exceptionally high leave (and is why TPE had 100+ daily cancellations last week, but only 3 today). Of course the question to Northern should probably be why so much leave has been authorised in the first place.

 

[BoroAndy]

Always assumed annual leave, other than the odd day, was organised months in advance with a maximum percentage off at one time, as in many job types and companies. Even above average sickness would be covered by crews on spare shift. Again, maybe reserve part time drivers is the answer.

 

[scrapy]

But could you imagine Tesco, Wetherspoons or McDonalds allowing so many staff to take annual leave at the same time resulting in the store being closed early…?

Those places just have slower service when they are short staffed. They are a totally different operation. Having 20 instead Of 30 staff on shift may mean some shelves don't get stocked or there are less tills on. This happens frequently. Obviously on the railway each train needs a driver so there will be cancellations but the railway doesn't close.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2023 ==

Always assumed annual leave, other than the odd day, was organised months in advance with a maximum percentage off at one time, as in many job types and companies. Even above average sickness would be covered by crews on spare shift. Again, maybe reserve part time drivers is the answer.

Leave is organised the way you say, and extra leave above the percentage is being refused, so the backlog of untaken leave is growing.

The money spent on reserve part time drivers would be better spent on more full time drivers and more training. The cost to train driver would still be the same. They would need more route review days, and still need the safety briefs etc. Also it's training capacity that's holding Northern back, so training part time instead of full time drivers is an inefficient use of this capacity.

 

[SteveL9]

Always assumed annual leave, other than the odd day, was organised months in advance with a maximum percentage off at one time, as in many job types and companies. Even above average sickness would be covered by crews on spare shift. Again, maybe reserve part time drivers is the answer.

It is. The vast majority is fixed in to the roster, with a few ad hoc days that can be requested here and there.

 

[dunc695]

But could you imagine Tesco, Wetherspoons or McDonalds allowing so many staff to take annual leave at the same time resulting in the store being closed early…?

I used to go on a BR North West Rail Rover in the late 80s with my Grandparents always in the first week of the August school holidays. I can never recall cancellations like this back then.

 

[175001]

But could you imagine Tesco, Wetherspoons or McDonalds allowing so many staff to take annual leave at the same time resulting in the store being closed early…?

The annual leave matrix lets the same amount of staff get their same amount of AL at one given time, and then there is a guaranteed amount of lieu days granted with the rest subject to jobs being covered.

I had my summer leave in April, trains we're being cancelled then. I applied for this Thursday off, and didn't get it even though I was 1 behind the guaranteed quota to get it off at our depot.

This time of year has nothing to do with the amount of cancellations ongoing.

 

[bearhugger]

I've just had another look at my local station, James Cook (JCH), and there are currently nine services cancelled today according to RealTimeTrains. I don't recall seeing so many cancellations on the Middlesbrough to Whitby line (I occasionally see a couple). It's starting to look like the sort of thing we hear about over on the west side of the Pennines.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've just had another look at my local station, James Cook (JCH), and there are currently nine services cancelled today according to RealTimeTrains. I don't recall seeing so many cancellations on the Middlesbrough to Whitby line (I occasionally see a couple). It's starting to look like the sort of thing we hear about over on the west side of the Pennines.

I believe that's emanating from something having gone at Heaton this morning. It caused a few cancellations on the Bishop - Saltburn axis as well.

 

[bearhugger]

I believe that's emanating from something having gone at Heaton this morning. It caused a few cancellations on the Bishop - Saltburn axis as well.

That makes sense - although I was thinking it might be something to do with staffing levels during the school holidays. The train I was after (the 14:25) didn't have an allocation on RTT first thing then when I checked later it was cancelled.

 

[ainsworth74]

That makes sense - although I was thinking it might be something to do with staffing levels during the school holidays. The train I was after (the 14:25) didn't have an allocation on RTT first thing then when I checked later it was cancelled.

Yes that's a bit suspect to be fair! That trains diagram has it coming from Nunthorpe at 0818 to Hexham by 1040, then leaving Hexham at 1055 to go to Battersby before coming back as the train you were after. You'd think they'd be able to restart it from Newcastle with a unit and crew at some point so perhaps they have struggled to find crew for it?

 

[bearhugger]

Yes that's a bit suspect to be fair! That trains diagram has it coming from Nunthorpe at 0818 to Hexham by 1040, then leaving Hexham at 1055 to go to Battersby before coming back as the train you were after. You'd think they'd be able to restart it from Newcastle with a unit and crew at some point so perhaps they have struggled to find crew for it?

Yeah, looks like I'm walking about 3 miles into town for work. That's the issue with the timetable between Middlesbrough & Nunthorpe being 1 train an hour. In theory, the 15 minutes each way between the two stations means we could have an half-hourly service but that means all train running to time and not being delayed + costs of extra unit & staff etc and that's starting to veer well off topic!

 

[ricoblade]

Cancellations on the Hope Valley line today due to “issues with train crew” and running awful 2 car 156s.

 

[northwichcat]

Cancellations on the Hope Valley line today due to “issues with train crew” and running awful 2 car 156s.

I can only see one return working between Manchester and Sheffield cancelled, plus the peak time Chinley being removed as a 'short notice change to the timetable.'

Looks like the 156 being used is 156464. You're lucky it's not one of the former Anglia ones.

 

[BPN2022]

The railway is falling to pieces all over the country and Northern are no better. Utterly depressing travelling anywhere at the minute just so unreliable.

Why Northern didn’t reduce to a STP type timetable for the school holidays I don’t know - particularly if these cancellations continue over the next 3 weeks. A temporary timetable which the public can rely is better than ad hoc cancellations which leave gaps of 4 trains in a row out of Blackpool North cancelled.

Seriously losing the will to live with this railway and any interest I had is diminishing. The last couple of years particularly.

 

[northernchris]

This week has seen quite a sudden increase in cancellations, and far too often consecutive services are cancelled. It doesn't help that there's also been an increase in short forms

 

[td97]

Quite a few are obvious guard shortages where the service is cancelled but replaced by an ECS

 

[gc4946]

However I'm guessing guard rosters are different from drivers rosters, do Northern keep both drivers and guards on the same unit for both their entire shifts?

 

[skyhigh]

However I'm guessing guard rosters are different from drivers rosters, do Northern keep both drivers and guards on the same unit for both their entire shifts?

No.

 

[geoffk]

No.

When I lived in Northern's area, I found that during a crew change, driver and guard came from different directions. Of course, only one of them needed to be late or missing to cause delay or cancellation.

 

[gc4946]

I'm surprised driver and guard don't work together from start to end of shift on the same unit, including breaks, on their specific assigned roster

 

[Watershed]

I'm surprised driver and guard don't work together from start to end of shift including breaks on their specific assigned roster

Fewer guards are required if you roster them separately; this is because guards don't need to take units to and from depots, and have less onerous break and shift length requirements. I can't exactly see the DfT stumping up the cash for tens or hundreds of extra guards to be recruited to allow "full crew working"...

In the case of Teesside, Northern actually has separate depots - a driver-only depot at Darlington, and a guard-only depot at Middlesbrough.

 

[skyhigh]

I'm surprised driver and guard don't work together from start to end of shift on the same unit, including breaks

Are you suggesting crews have to take breaks on the unit and not swap units at any point? There are obvious problems with that suggestion...

 

[gc4946]

Understand, makes sense crews get to mess room for their breaks, but otherwise work together until end of shift

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What was the first year in recent times when such cancellations really became what seems now the status quo on the Northern operational area?

 

[Peterthegreat]

What was the first year in recent times when such cancellations really became what seems now the status quo on the Northern operational area?

In the eastern side, despite one or two hiccups, I would say the services were ok up until Arriva took over for the second time (April 2016). The 2018 timetable change was shambolic and I don't think they have recovered from that.

 

[D6130]

I'm surprised driver and guard don't work together from start to end of shift on the same unit, including breaks, on their specific assigned roster

This type of diagramming - known as 'full crew working' - was trialled in Scotland with the opening of the Argyle Line in 1979. (I was involved in planning the crew and unit diagrams). However it was abandoned after a few years because drivers require longer for train preparation and disposal at the start and end of the day, plus walking time to and from the stabling locations, which played havoc with the rosters.

 

[SuspectUsual]

What was the first year in recent times when such cancellations really became what seems now the status quo on the Northern operational area?

The summer of 2018 was the first time it completely fell apart