Northern cancellations getting worse

[Greybeard33]

I rarely use Northern, and to be fair, on the odd occasion I have there have been no real issues. Not so, today, however;

Travelling from Oxford to Glasgow I decided to go via XC to Stockport, EMR from there to Manchester Oxford Road, then Northern (1C55 1029 Manchester Airport [MIA]-Barrow) to Preston for a good connection into Avanti. I had checked that all trains were running, and they were, including 1C55, formed by 195121.

So I arrived at Oxford Road, a little late but in time for 1C55, only to see no mention of it on the information screens; Not showing cancelled, just not mentioned at all! But thanks to a non-rail industry system (Realtime Trains) I found that it was indeed cancelled, due to a traincrew issue, code TH.

While waiting at Oxford Road working out what to do next, the place descended into chaos; A train from Barrow, 1Y94 0848 to MIA, arrived in Platform 2 and stood there for 29 minutes, due to unit swap, code YU. Meanwhile, a train, formed strangely enough by 195121, arrived in Platform 3 from the Piccadilly direction and was advertised as a train back to MIA, that set then stood for a while and before departure was amended to running to Piccadilly only - An absolutely ludicrous, pointless train. Meanwhile trains backed up behind this set resulting in delays of up to 30 minutes to services for Liverpool, Blackpool, Saltburn and Glasgow. No attempt was made to route anything via Platform 1.

Passenger information was desperately poor as well, although I doubt whether the station staff knew any more about what was going on than the passengers.

Just an embarrassing shambles.

This was undoubtedly an unfortunate and confusing incident. I do not know the root causes, but the data in RTT enables some clarification of, and rationale for, the sequence of events:

195124, working 1Y94, Barrow to Manchester Airport, arrived at Oxford Road two minutes late, at 1056. This unit was then taken out of service. It subsequently departed back west at 1114 as Very Short Term Plan (VSTP) ECS working 5J87, to Newton Heath depot via the Ordsall Chord.

195121, which was booked to work the cancelled Airport to Barrow service 1C55, instead formed 5C55, a VSTP ECS working from the Airport to Oxford Road. This was planned to arrive at 1051, so that the unit would have been ready to immediately pick up the 1Y94 passengers for the onward working to the Airport (the unit swap). Unfortunately 5C55 departed late from the Airport and was then trapped behind the late running Airport to Liverpool stopper 2F33, causing further delay. It did not get to Oxford Road until 1113. 195121 eventually departed back east, now as 1Y94, at 1125, 29 late. The service was then cut short to terminate at Piccadilly. The unit reversed again and subsequently formed 1C79 to Windermere, which was scheduled to start from the Airport but started short from Piccadilly, departing Oxford Road at 1154, 1 late.

Regarding the related delays to other services:
323225, working the aforementioned 2F33 Airport to Liverpool stopper, was already 10 minutes late leaving the Airport, due to late arrival of the unit from its previous service. It departed Oxford Road at 1111, 13 late, 2 minutes before the arrival of 195121, working 5C55. 1P71, Airport to Saltburn, arrived at Piccadilly at 1110, already 13 late, and then lost a further 14 minutes between Piccadilly and Oxford Road, arriving there at 1127. It was followed by 1N61, Airport to Blackpool, which was also 28 late departing Oxford Road. Finally 1S51, Airport to Glasgow, was 13 late departing Oxford Road.

Oxford Road Platform 1 is only 105m (4-car length) and so could not have accommodated the 6-car Saltburn train 1P71. Presumably this is why the queue developed.

Realtime Trains | Departures from Manchester Oxford Road around 1100 on 24/04/2023

Train information at Manchester Oxford Road around 1100 on 24/04/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Falcon1200]

Thanks for the detail @Greybeard33. The thing I find strange is sending a set to Oxford Road just to work back to Manchester Airport, given the number of alternative services available; And as it turned out, 195121 only went to Piccadilly anyway! Unless it perhaps had to move to vacate platforms?

 

[Greybeard33]

Thanks for the detail @Greybeard33. The thing I find strange is sending a set to Oxford Road just to work back to Manchester Airport, given the number of alternative services available; And as it turned out, 195121 only went to Piccadilly anyway! Unless it perhaps had to move to vacate platforms?

I think the bigger picture is that Northern was trying to limit the knock-on repercussions of withdrawing 195124 from service. If 195121 had worked its booked service 1C55 to Barrow, 1C79 to Windermere would have had to be cancelled, which would have left the Windermere branch without its shuttle service to Oxenholme for several hours later in the day (later workings in the same diagram).

By "stepping back" 195121 an hour to take over 195124's diagram, only the one service to Barrow was cancelled. The return working from Barrow is normally doubled up to 6-car, so it still ran but short formed as a 3-car. Overall the least pain to the fewest passengers, but unfortunately your journey was part of the "collateral damage".

 

[Falcon1200]

Overall the least pain to the fewest passengers, but unfortunately your journey was part of the "collateral damage".

Good points. The one thing I would question is the wisdom running ECS to Oxford Road to turn in one of the through platforms to form what was, in reality, a wholly unnecessary train! But of course, such decisions are made without being able to see into the future.

 

[Greybeard33]

Good points. The one thing I would question is the wisdom running ECS to Oxford Road to turn in one of the through platforms to form what was, in reality, a wholly unnecessary train! But of course, such decisions are made without being able to see into the future.

Indeed so. With hindsight it would seem to have been better for 195121 to just wait at the Airport for an hour, and advise the passengers evicted from 195124 to use other services to Piccadilly and the Airport. But presumably Northern wanted to avoid part cancellation of 1Y94 in the punctuality statistics. As it turned out they had to part cancel both 1Y94 and 1C79, as well as the full cancellation of 1C55!

But there may also have been issues related to crew swaps, e.g. the driver from the Airport might have been needed at Oxford Road to take 195124 to Newton Heath depot because the driver from Barrow did not sign the route.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Yet another calamitous day in South Yorkshire. The last FOUR Northern services from Doncaster to Sheffield are cancelled. No mention of any alternatives/bus substitutions on their website.

 

[J-2739]

Make it stop!

 

[Killingworth]

Yet another calamitous day in South Yorkshire. The last FOUR Northern services from Doncaster to Sheffield are cancelled. No mention of any alternatives/bus substitutions on their website.

Last year I was involved in a project with a charity and others to get a group onto a Northern Sunday service along the Hope Valley. Just 2 weeks before we were set to go we realised Northern had cancelled one of the 3 diagrams on the last 3 Sundays, including both the services we planned to use. We had to abort that project. Just as well as those services didn't run.

With different participants and more parties we'd arranged a more ambitious project involving the Doncaster-Sheffield service and the Hope Valley line, including a Supertram experience between Sheffield and Rotherham. Another calamity faced? Dead right! We were going for Friday 12tn May - same day as ASLEF's latest strike! Aborted again and multiple parties having to be advised. Embarrassing to say the least, and a lot of time wasted. We were stupid to try.

How many other people get inconvenienced and swear they'll avoid trains in future?

When the railway can't provide reliable timetabled services can it be surprised when even the most enthusiastic potential users opt to use other means to travel, or just stay at home?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Northern listing 51 cancellations for the remainder of the day
On the Sheffield to Leeds via Dearne line we have the
15.15, 16.15, 17.15 and 18.15 all cancelled. How can anyone defend this? This is poor management.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Northern listing 51 cancellations for the remainder of the day
On the Sheffield to Leeds via Dearne line we have the
15.15, 16.15, 17.15 and 18.15 all cancelled. How can anyone defend this? This is poor management.

Certainly suggests three diagrams on that service at least partially uncovered (either driver, conductor or both).

 

[Peterthegreat]

Certainly suggests three diagrams on that service at least partially uncovered (either driver, conductor or both).

So is that a random issue or have the crews been utilised for something else? That number of successive cancellations is unacceptable.

 

[Neptune]

Northern listing 51 cancellations for the remainder of the day
On the Sheffield to Leeds via Dearne line we have the
15.15, 16.15, 17.15 and 18.15 all cancelled. How can anyone defend this? This is poor management.

So I ask as before which wasn’t answered. What would you do and why haven’t you applied for a position in Northern to enable you to magic Traincrew up out of thin air.

 

[td97]

On the plus side, "short notice change to the timetable" cancellations in the North West are now showing on Journeycheck. Previously, these disappeared without trace when viewing online journey planners and Journeycheck.

 

[Peterthegreat]

So I ask as before which wasn’t answered. What would you do and why haven’t you applied for a position in Northern to enable you to magic Traincrew up out of thin air.

It's not just a question of magicing train crew. It's a question of utilising the resources to best advantage. Do you think it is acceptable to cancel four trains in a row? Do you think it is acceptable to cancel the four last services from Doncaster as I posted earlier in the week?
Whilst not impossible I think the chances of three sets of train crew "missing" on the same route is very high given most routes were running almost normally.
Can you categorically say train crew were not taken off this route to cover other services?
If not why were train crew not reallocated? We are not talking about the odd cancellation, we are talking about the virtual abandonment of certain routes for a significant timescale.
In December Northern told local politicians that they had sufficient resources. Clearly they do not.

 

[Neptune]

It's not just a question of magicing train crew. It's a question of utilising the resources to best advantage. Do you think it is acceptable to cancel four trains in a row? Do you think it is acceptable to cancel the four last services from Doncaster as I posted earlier in the week?
Whilst not impossible I think the chances of three sets of train crew "missing" on the same route is very high given most routes were running almost normally.
Can you categorically say train crew were not taken off this route to cover other services?
If not why were train crew not reallocated? We are not talking about the odd cancellation, we are talking about the virtual abandonment of certain routes for a significant timescale.
In December Northern told local politicians that they had sufficient resources. Clearly they do not.

Is it acceptable? No. Do you know why these services are cancelled? Northern as per all other companies do not cancel trains for fun. Traincrew shortages at certain locations can happen at anytime. We had it at Huddersfield a few years ago which really affected the Penistone line.

So please answer the question. What would you do to prevent this situation? I’m sure we all want to know the answers to this, not just at Northern.

 

[Falcon1200]

So I ask as before which wasn’t answered. What would you do

The obvious answer is cancel a train on another route and utilise the Traincrew to fill at least one gap amid four consecutive cancellations. However there may be valid reasons why this could not be done, eg availability of crew with route knowledge, traction knowledge, sufficient time in their roster to book off on time, adverse effect on other services.

 

[Neptune]

The obvious answer is cancel a train on another route and utilise the Traincrew to fill at least one gap amid four consecutive cancellations. However there may be valid reasons why this could not be done, eg availability of crew with route knowledge, traction knowledge, sufficient time in their roster to book off on time, adverse effect on other services.

Precisely. It’s not always a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. There are many more considerations to contemplate. However rail enthusiasts always seem to know more than the professionals, until they’re put in the precise position of how to actually resolve it.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The obvious answer is cancel a train on another route and utilise the Traincrew to fill at least one gap amid four consecutive cancellations. However there may be valid reasons why this could not be done, eg availability of crew with route knowledge, traction knowledge, sufficient time in their roster to book off on time, adverse effect on other services.

The Sheffield to Leeds route via Dearne utilises the same rolling stock as other routes in the Sheffield area so that is unlikely to be an issue. In addition most crews know all the routes between Leeds and Sheffield. The obvious thing would have been to utilise one of these. It's highly unlikely all possible crews would run out of hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 May 2023 ==

Precisely. It’s not always a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. There are many more considerations to contemplate. However rail enthusiasts always seem to know more than the professionals, until they’re put in the precise position of how to actually resolve it.

I was a rail professional. In addition a number of my friends have worked for Northern in the past including senior roles. They are all appalled at this situation.

 

[Neptune]

I was a rail professional. In addition a number of my friends have worked for Northern in the past including senior roles. They are all appalled at this situation.

Super. So tell us what you’d do in detail. We’re all ears.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Super. So tell us what you’d do in detail. We’re all ears.

There are a number of things that can be done. The first of which is for Northern to acknowledge they have an issue in South Yorkshire particularly. Then they can start working on ways to improve things.
I really would like to know why some days are relatively OK whilst others are a complete fiasco? Is this to do with union meetings?
When Northern cut the syopping services between Sheffield and Doncaster by a half they said it was to improve reliability. They then cut it again. Reliability was not improved.
In fact they took out a unit diagram and didn't change the train crew diagrams. Staff were sitting around with no train....

 

[Neptune]

So absolutely no answers of how to resolve it. I had such high hopes too….

 

[Herefordian]

Wait, I thought Burnham said binning Arriva would make Northern better?

Oh...

 

[Neptune]

Wait, I thought Burnham said binning Arriva would make Northern better?

Oh...

Tell me what’s worse which doesn’t include the issues around covid (crew shortages are a result of covid issues and the subsequent fallout if that helps).

 

[Peterthegreat]

So absolutely no answers of how to resolve it. I had such high hopes too….

Sarcasm doesn't help.
As I said I will provide more information when I have time.

 

[Neptune]

Sarcasm doesn't help.
As I said I will provide more information when I have time.

Not sarcasm, I had genuine expectations of an answer.

I thought that surely by the way you’re berating Northern for this then you must have the answers on how to resolve this issue which Northern haven’t thought of. Just disappointed that the reality is that you don’t and it’s just a reactive rant.

 

[skyhigh]

I really would like to know why some days are relatively OK whilst others are a complete fiasco? Is this to do with union meetings?

Why would union meetings make any difference?

 

[Neptune]

Why would union meetings make any difference?

Straw grasping I suspect.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Not sarcasm, I had genuine expectations of an answer.

I thought that surely by the way you’re berating Northern for this then you must have the answers on how to resolve this issue which Northern haven’t thought of. Just disappointed that the reality is that you don’t and it’s just a reactive

Straw grasping I suspect.

Er no. I have it on very good authority that staff have been booked off to attend union meetings (with management).

 

[Neptune]

Er no. I have it on very good authority that staff have been booked off to attend union meetings (with management).

Anyone can say “I have it on very good authority” but I prefer to deal in facts so please do enlighten us (NB. I have access to the Sheffield rosters and know the reps very well).

 

[Peterthegreat]

Anyone can say “I have it on very good authority” but I prefer to deal in facts so please do enlighten us (NB. I have access to the Sheffield rosters and know the reps very well).

I am not going to betray my source suffice to say it was an ASLEF rep going to a meeting. And I also know some of the reps well.