Northern cancellations, Friday 24th May '24

[Starmill]

Anyone who is unhappy with the performance of the service they use, or would like to use, can of course write to their new MP in around five weeks time raising the matter as a priority. Any permanent resident of the UK can do this, no matter their location or citizenship or anything else. There's no reason not to if your view is it's a priority. Obviously your new MP will probably have bigger things to deal with but they will still record it for you and they may be able to get an answer on the record about the situation.

 

[Killingworth]

Anyone who is unhappy with the performance of the service they use, or would like to use, can of course write to their new MP in around five weeks time raising the matter as a priority. Any permanent resident of the UK can do this, no matter their location or citizenship or anything else. There's no reason not to if your view is it's a priority. Obviously your new MP will probably have bigger things to deal with but they will still record it for you and they may be able to get an answer on the record about the situation.

The current MP for High Peak, Robert Largan, is a former member of the Transport Select Committee. It's a very marginal constituency including Edale. He makes a lot of noise about the Hope Valley line. Surprised if he hasn't picked up on this hot potato of an issue..

 

[muz379]

I think some of the responses are adopting a 'can't be done' attitude without properly exploring it, but that's not my point above. My point is that there's no inherent reason why the existing model is the only possible one. If not the one I suggested, look at others.

What is hypocritical is for rail staff to on the one hand say (correctly) that rest days are voluntary, but on the other hand object to any response that says 'OK, we agree with you. Let's look at different models so we won't need to ask you to take on additional shifts anymore'.

firstly , drivers rest days dont effect me . I'm not one . Im merely pointing out why your suggestion wouldn't work , unless you chucked loads of money at them . At whcih point it begs the question why not just over resource the job instead .

 

[Cowley]

firstly , drivers rest days dont effect me . I'm not one . Im merely pointing out why your suggestion wouldn't work , unless you chucked loads of money at them . At whcih point it begs the question why not just over resource the job instead .

Ok. I think that’s a reasonable place to draw a line under that particular side discussion as it’s starting to go around in circles.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Having sufferred at Northern shortage of train crew this afternoon It doesn't bode well if

It seems to be toxic wherever either are involved to any extent.

Hang on loads of railway journalists tell us OLR is the answer and so do Labour now so this doesn't bode well. For all peoples negativities about franchising across this forum the railway ran with a dam site less IR problems than it has for the last 18mths

 

[dk1]

Having sufferred at Northern shortage of train crew this afternoon It doesn't bode well if

Hang on loads of railway journalists tell us OLR is the answer and so do Labour now so this doesn't bode well. For all peoples negativities about franchising across this forum the railway ran with a dam site less IR problems than it has for the last 18mths

If you don’t change those at the top then this is what you’ll get. Same old same old.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If you don’t change those at the top then this is what you’ll get. Same old same old.

OLR put its own team in and they've had four years to sort things out although Donavan moved on a few weeks ago but replaced by the Chief Operating Office who would have been responsible for industrial relations so am surmising that wasn't sufficient for ASLEF to reconsider its position.

 

[dk1]

OLR put its own team in and they've had four years to sort things out although Donavan moved on a few weeks ago but replaced by the Chief Operating Office who would have been responsible for industrial relations so am surmising that wasn't sufficient for ASLEF to reconsider its position.

If management continue not to honour agreements then this will forever be the outcome.

 

[Confused52]

If management continue not to honour agreements then this will forever be the outcome.

What do they have to do differently and why aren't they doing it?

 

[dk1]

What do they have to do differently and why aren't they doing it?

You tell me!! I don’t work for Northern. It’s the same operators who we see time & time again that have industrial relations issues. If both sides stick to the letter then they sail one happy ship. No need for any of this as ASLEF had already sanctioned rest day working from the beginning of June only for it to be thwarted once again by failure to conform.

 

[Starmill]

OLR put its own team in and they've had four years to sort things out although Donavan moved on a few weeks ago but replaced by the Chief Operating Office who would have been responsible for industrial relations so am surmising that wasn't sufficient for ASLEF to reconsider its position.

Yes, they can make new appointments. Doesn't mean that they are certain to though, see David Horne.

 

[yorksrob]

Having sufferred at Northern shortage of train crew this afternoon It doesn't bode well if

Hang on loads of railway journalists tell us OLR is the answer and so do Labour now so this doesn't bode well. For all peoples negativities about franchising across this forum the railway ran with a dam site less IR problems than it has for the last 18mths

I'd say having a competent Government is more key to a functioning railway service, than any particular management arrangement.

 

[12LDA28C]

It does seem to me that some here are arguing on the one hand that rest day working is voluntary (which is fair enough), but on the other hand are objecting to any alternative model that could reduce the rail industry's reliance on rest day working and thus opportunities for staff to earn extra income. That does sound like wanting to have one's cake and eat it.

The 'alternative model' which works best for the passenger is simply to employ sufficient drivers to enable the operator to run the advertised timetable, and for TOC management to adhere to agreements. Problem solved.

 

[Moonshot]

The 'alternative model' which works best for the passenger is simply to employ sufficient drivers to enable the operator to run the advertised timetable, and for TOC management to adhere to agreements. Problem solved.

What works best for the passenger does not always align with what works best for the railway

 

[12LDA28C]

What works best for the passenger does not always align with what works best for the railway

So you're saying that the current situation at Northern is 'working best for the railway', yes? Doesn't look that way to me.

 

[Moonshot]

So you're saying that the current situation at Northern is 'working best for the railway', yes? Doesn't look that way to me.

No I'm not......I'm simply pointing out that the railway doesn't always act in the best interests of the passengers. And that is being proved right now.....as the industry would rather rely on overtime and goodwill to cover a timetable. Unfortunately, the industrial relations issues at Northern are somewhat getting in the way of that.

 

[12LDA28C]

No I'm not......I'm simply pointing out that the railway doesn't always act in the best interests of the passengers. And that is being proved right now.....as the industry would rather rely on overtime and goodwill to cover a timetable. Unfortunately, the industrial relations issues at Northern are somewhat getting in the way of that.

And clearly relying on overtime and goodwill isn't working in the best interests of passengers or the railway as I don't believe the railway considers it ideal to have to cancel loads of services.

 

[Confused52]

And clearly relying on overtime and goodwill isn't working in the best interests of passengers or the railway as I don't believe the railway considers it ideal to have to cancel loads of services.

That statement is not logical or proven, there exists a possibility that relying on overtime and goodwill does work for the passenger as it lowers costs as well as being capable of delivering services. What defeats it is the interminable appetite for generating industrial disputes in Northern which has been going on for at least five years. The fact that no information about the cause of the present disruption of overtime working is given by anyone, and that there is no indication of negotiations that might cut short the two month implementation period suggest that the reasons would not be universally understood or found sufficient if made public. While suggesting the need is for more staff rather often we are also told that it takes a very long time to train those staff so in practice more staff is not actually a rational way of ending the current disruption in a sensible timescale. The idea that after all this time we are supposed to believe that only the management are capable of being unreasonable and butter would not melt in the mouths of union leaders, officials or members is rather implausible. It always comes back to there being no answer possible, which signals that the model of dispute resolution and collective bargaining is what is broken and whilst either side refuses to change decline will continue.

 

[skyhigh]

The fact that no information about the cause of the present disruption of overtime working is given by anyone

It's because agreements aren't being followed. There is plenty of evidence for this but given most of it is internal nobody is going to be stupid enough to post it here. Rest assured that if Northern felt it was unjustified they would be straight onto legal action (as happened previously, twice, in 2021-2).

 

[12LDA28C]

That statement is not logical or proven, there exists a possibility that relying on overtime and goodwill does work for the passenger as it lowers costs as well as being capable of delivering services. What defeats it is the interminable appetite for generating industrial disputes in Northern which has been going on for at least five years. The fact that no information about the cause of the present disruption of overtime working is given by anyone, and that there is no indication of negotiations that might cut short the two month implementation period suggest that the reasons would not be universally understood or found sufficient if made public. While suggesting the need is for more staff rather often we are also told that it takes a very long time to train those staff so in practice more staff is not actually a rational way of ending the current disruption in a sensible timescale. The idea that after all this time we are supposed to believe that only the management are capable of being unreasonable and butter would not melt in the mouths of union leaders, officials or members is rather implausible. It always comes back to there being no answer possible, which signals that the model of dispute resolution and collective bargaining is what is broken and whilst either side refuses to change decline will continue.

Any business that relies on staff working overtime and on their days off to provide the basic advertised service is clearly inviting risk into their operation which is not in the best interest of customers, and that is no different in the case of the railway. Even when there is no industrial action, it's certainly the case that if too many staff are off sick / leave / not in the workplace for any reason then the effect of that shortfall is going to be much greater, the further below full establishment the traincrew depots are operating. That is entirely logical, and indeed proven time and time again.

 

[Cowley]

Being that this was a few days ago now, I think we can probably call it a day.

Thanks everyone