Northern and TPE Consultation Document

[thealexweb]

There seems to be a lot of talk on this site about North Transpennine services but little or nothing seems to be known about the futures services of the South Transpennine routes.

In regard to the next franchise, Transpennine North does seem to be focus yes, after that Transpennine South is next on the agenda. As for Transpennine North West there has been a deafening silence for months now. We do not even know how many trains per hour they are aiming for. The 2tph they operate at moment is woefully inadequate. Where's the Transpennine North West talk of more services? Maybe 3tph?

 

[IanXC]

Interesting thanks. What about services beyond Shefield? Obviously slitting EMT's Liverpool- Norwich service at Nottingham has been suggested with TPE taking over the Liverpool- Nottingham section but that still leves 2tph beyond Sheffield. Personally I think one of those should go to Hull via Goole (as Selby will have 2 TPE tph) The other should either continue to Cleethorpes or could be diverted to Lincoln via Retford.

If South TPE is to remain 2tph, I think these have to remain as Nottingham and Cleethorpes. I think its now increasingly likely that there'll be a third train per hour - for which I'd say it's a choice of Hull or Lincoln.

I'm not really sure Hull makes much sense - other than first class it wouldnt be a meaningful upgrade on the current Northern express, and would actually damage connectivity on the Yorkshire coast line as through services would presumably come to an end. Furthermore no one in their right mind would travel to Manchester via Sheffield if/when there's 2tph via Leeds.

On the other hand does Lincoln have the demand? Presumably we'd be looking at a calling pattern of:

Lincoln Central
Gainsborough Lea Road
Retford
Worksop
Sheffield
[and wherever across the Pennines]

 

[northwichcat]

If South TPE is to remain 2tph, I think these have to remain as Nottingham and Cleethorpes. I think its now increasingly likely that there'll be a third train per hour - for which I'd say it's a choice of Hull or Lincoln.

Consultation proposed Doncaster-Hull goes to TPE and Doncaster-Cleethorpes goes to Northern, which hasn't gone down well in Lincolnshire. Presumably the idea is for the diesel services with get put in to the next TPE franchise to either be ones that will switch to electric during the course of the next franchise or have a high chance of being included in future electrification announcements.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

If South TPE is to remain 2tph, I think these have to remain as Nottingham and Cleethorpes. I think its now increasingly likely that there'll be a third train per hour - for which I'd say it's a choice of Hull or Lincoln.

I'm not really sure Hull makes much sense - other than first class it wouldnt be a meaningful upgrade on the current Northern express, and would actually damage connectivity on the Yorkshire coast line as through services would presumably come to an end. Furthermore no one in their right mind would travel to Manchester via Sheffield if/when there's 2tph via Leeds.

I agree that no one would do Manchester - Hull via Sheffield, (they would go via North Transpennine), but Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull must be a decent flow and would provide improved links between two Northern cities.

On the other hand does Lincoln have the demand? Presumably we'd be looking at a calling pattern of:

Lincoln Central
Gainsborough Lea Road
Retford
Worksop
Sheffield
[and wherever across the Pennines]

Sounds about right to me. Whether the demand would be greater than from Grimsby/Cleethorpes I don't know.

Consultation proposed Doncaster-Hull goes to TPE and Doncaster-Cleethorpes goes to Northern, which hasn't gone down well in Lincolnshire. Presumably the idea is for the diesel services with get put in to the next TPE franchise to either be ones that will switch to electric during the course of the next franchise or have a high chance of being included in future electrification announcements.

Good point about future electrification, still there are 51x 185's that need to be used. How many units would be needed for Blackpool North to Scarborough (assuming it gets extended from York)? Personally I would transfer Doncaster-Cleethorpes and the Barton-on-Humber branch to EMT.

 

[northwichcat]

I agree that no one would do Manchester - Hull via Sheffield, (they would go via North Transpennine), but Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull must be a decent flow and would provide improved links between two Northern cities.

It'll be one of those services that'll be awkward to display on destination boards. Putting 'via Sheffield' or 'via Doncaster' after Hull won't probably prevent people wanting Hull boarding it, while putting the penultimate station confuses people who have used Journey Planners to plan their journey and have been told to get the, for instance, 11:21 service to Hull as far as Doncaster and they can't find a 11:21 to Hull on the departures board.

 

[brompton rail]

It'll be one of those services that'll be awkward to display on destination boards. Putting 'via Sheffield' or 'via Doncaster' after Hull won't probably prevent people wanting Hull boarding it, while putting the penultimate station confuses people who have used Journey Planners to plan their journey and have been told to get the, for instance, 11:21 service to Hull as far as Doncaster and they can't find a 11:21 to Hull on the departures board.

There is an hourly semi-fast service Sheffield - Meadowhall - Doncaster - Goole - Brough - Hull - Yorkshire Coast (Bridlington and 3 hourly extensions to Scarborough). Perhaps this should continue to Hope Valley (maybe Hathersage or Hope - Chinley - Stockport - Manchester. This would require 3 more Class 158s however - where would they come from?

 

[northwichcat]

There is an hourly semi-fast service Sheffield - Meadowhall - Doncaster - Goole - Brough - Hull - Yorkshire Coast (Bridlington and 3 hourly extensions to Scarborough). Perhaps this should continue to Hope Valley (maybe Hathersage or Hope - Chinley - Stockport - Manchester. This would require 3 more Class 158s however - where would they come from?

I think the idea is the additional Manchester-Sheffield service would start in 2018/2019 once some 185s have been released from North TPE.

This is what TPE have submitted to Network Rail (by request of DfT):

The track access rights sought by this application are based on the ITSS and seek to optimise the infrastructure investments to be completed by December 2016. The ITSS drives major changes to the proposed timetable making optimal use of the Northern Hub, including
the Ordsall Chord. This provides for the following hourly pattern of services:
 Liverpool Lime Street – Newcastle via Manchester Victoria
 Liverpool Lime Street – York via Manchester Victoria
 Manchester Airport – Middlesbrough via Manchester Victoria
 Manchester Airport – Scarborough via Manchester Victoria
 Manchester Piccadilly – Hull
 Manchester Piccadilly – Selby

Service operating via Manchester Victoria will have limited stops between Liverpool and Leeds to minimise journey times. Manchester Piccadilly services will make calls at intermediate station such as Marsden providing improved links to the regions cities.

In addition to the firm rights required to support the above service pattern contingent rights are also sought to:
 extend the Liverpool Lime Street – York service to Newcastle;
 extend Manchester Piccadilly – Selby service to Hull;
 introduce an additional service between Liverpool Lime Street – Stockport via Warrington; and,
 provide a further Sheffield via Manchester service in line with DfT requirements.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...ection 17 application (consultation copy).pdf

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

.
On the other hand does Lincoln have the demand? Presumably we'd be looking at a calling pattern of:

Lincoln Central
Gainsborough Lea Road
Retford
Worksop
Sheffield
[and wherever across the Pennines]

My good lady wife and I have been inveterate travellers by a direct rail connection to Northern settlements with a cathedral or an abbey amongst other attractions for a full day trip from the Manchester area (York, Durham, Chester, Selby) but have always regretted the lack of a direct service to Lincoln. Are we the only ones who would consider Lincoln to be a place worth visiting?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

My good lady wife and I have been inveterate travellers by a direct rail connection to Northern settlements with a cathedral or an abbey amongst other attractions for a full day trip from the Manchester area (York, Durham, Chester, Selby) but have always regretted the lack of a direct service to Lincoln. Are we the only ones who would consider Lincoln to be a place worth visiting?

Having been to Lincoln and visited its cathedral I can assure you Paul it is well worth the visit (the roof tour was very good). The Christmas market is also very good (highly recommended by my mother).

 

[northwichcat]

Having been to Lincoln and visited its cathedral I can assure you Paul it is well worth the visit (the roof tour was very good). The Christmas market is also very good (highly recommended by my mother).

If you're feeling energetic you can climb up a steep cobbled hill to the cathedral, which is called 'the steep hill', they've also got a park near the cathedral called 'the lawn' - very inventive!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My good lady wife and I have been inveterate travellers by a direct rail connection to Northern settlements with a cathedral or an abbey amongst other attractions for a full day trip from the Manchester area (York, Durham, Chester, Selby) but have always regretted the lack of a direct service to Lincoln. Are we the only ones who would consider Lincoln to be a place worth visiting?

Apart from the close-up views of the cathedral, don't forget to follow it from the train.
You can see the cathedral sailing across the fens from west of the Trent around Gainsborough, past West Burton power station and well on the way to Retford, half an hour after you have left Lincoln.
After all there are no hills to look at...

You can also reflect on the closure of the direct MS&L line from Sykes Jn to Clarborough Jn past Cottam power station.
Also the loss of the North Country Continental which used this route from Lincoln direct to Manchester via Woodhead.
A round trip to Lincoln via Stoke-Derby-Nottingham, returning via Retford-Sheffield-Stockport makes a good day out.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you're feeling energetic you can climb up a steep cobbled hill to the cathedral, which is called 'the steep hill', they've also got a park near the cathedral called 'the lawn' - very inventive!

If you ever visit Durham, you will find exactly the same steep hill situation from the area where the indoor market is to the cathedral.

 

[Class 170101]

Its noticeable that no one has suggested a service between Leicester and the Northwest (Manchester and beyond) via the Hope Valley.

 

[edwin_m]

Its noticeable that no one has suggested a service between Leicester and the Northwest (Manchester and beyond) via the Hope Valley.

It has been suggested, but probably not on here. There would be various options including running via Derby and/or using Dore South curve.

 

[Class 170101]

It has been suggested, but probably not on here. There would be various options including running via Derby and/or using Dore South curve.

I was more thinking in the Consultation document. I think I have seen it suggested on this board somewhere, in the past.

 

[Starmill]

My good lady wife and I have been inveterate travellers by a direct rail connection to Northern settlements with a cathedral or an abbey amongst other attractions for a full day trip from the Manchester area (York, Durham, Chester, Selby) but have always regretted the lack of a direct service to Lincoln. Are we the only ones who would consider Lincoln to be a place worth visiting?

Lincoln has currently got an absolutely terrible service to all of the places that actually matter. Economically, I would say that Lincoln's most important link is with Sheffield, followed by Nottingham. So something better than an all-stations hourly pacer to connect to the former, continuing express to Manchester, an even larger economy, if it is a little distant, sounds like it could create quite a lot of demand. Improvements on the Nottingham service are also on the way, one hopes. I'm not sure how many people from the Greater Manchester area do go to visit Lincoln, neither I nor any of my friends or family ever went there on any of our days out (York, Chester, Blackpool, Southport, Liverpool, Leeds and Hull were places I was all taken to more than once, except for Hull where we just went for The Deep). I've asked my parents, neither have ever visited Lincoln, nor even knew where it was, really. That doesn't mean that it's not going to get any visitors from the North West of course, but I'd guess that Lincoln would be more up on the deal from such a service.

 

[gerryuk]

Why not extend the Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly service to Lincoln via Sheffield and the Lincoln - Sheffield service to Llandudno via Manchester?
Joining up services like these will open up new markets and would be a win, win for all.
In the scheme of things would this cost money, need new stock? It can’t be that difficult.

 

[mwmbwls]

I was more thinking in the Consultation document. I think I have seen it suggested on this board somewhere, in the past.

IIRC The original suggestion, which appeared in a RUS, was for an additional East Midlands service to Manchestrer Airport probably starting at Nottingham and a TPE service to either Preston or Blackpool via the Marple line and Manchester Victoria. The former idea died as a result of lack of platform capacity at the Airport - together with competing aspirations from ATW etc. The latter idea keeps popping up although once Piccadilly has the extra platforms it might seem less attractive.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

IIRC The original suggestion, which appeared in a RUS, was for an additional East Midlands service to Manchestrer Airport probably starting at Nottingham and a TPE service to either Preston or Blackpool via the Marple line and Manchester Victoria. The former idea died as a result of lack of platform capacity at the Airport - together with competing aspirations from ATW etc. The latter idea keeps popping up although once Piccadilly has the extra platforms it might seem less attractive.

Would the fourth platform, when operational, at Manchester Airport station help in this respect or has the extra station capacity afforded by that platform already been spoken for?

 

[mwmbwls]

Would the fourth platform, when operational, at Manchester Airport station help in this respect or has the extra station capacity afforded by that platform already been spoken for?

it is a complex situation. As far as I am aware this is not an "either/or" situation but an "and". The new platform at the airport, which is not due to open in this control period will facilitate the operation of existing trains by reducing the numbers of occasions when two trains need to be stabled in the same platform - a common existing practice. The platform is only being completed now to avoid disrupting Metrolink's extension. IIRC there are no plans for immediate track laying following the building work. There are known aspirants for an Airport service - ATW North Wales Services,Blackburn Services and post chord Calder Valley Services. Southport is scheduled to lose its services to the airport in 2016 - much to local annoyance. This is one of those matters that Rail North was supposed to deal with but as yet it has not made any announcements on this.

There will also be a period of disruption than begins with the connection of the chord and carries on through the construction of 15 & 16 as the reconstruction of 13 & 14. AIUI timings for this are at this stage illustrative rather than definite.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

it is a complex situation. As far as I am aware this is not an "either/or" situation but an "and". The new platform at the airport, which is not due to open in this control period will facilitate the operation of existing trains by reducing the numbers of occasions when two trains need to be stabled in the same platform

The fact that CP4 ends on 31st December 2014 and CP5 starts of 1st January 2015 tends to lessen the emphasis on the "not due to open in this control period" statement..

 

[mwmbwls]

The fact that CP4 ends on 31st December 2014 and CP5 starts of 1st January 2015 tends to lessen the emphasis on the "not due to open in this control period" statement..

True. Are any other forum members able to the flesh out the bones as to when the track laying into the new platform will take place?

 

[swt_passenger]

True. Are any other forum members able to the flesh out the bones as to when the track laying into the new platform will take place?

The June update to the CP5 enhancement plans only shows dates for Grip 6 start Jan 2014 and finish in Mar 2015. 'Grip 6 complete' means infrastructure ready for use. With those dates you'd expect track laying fairly soon...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The fact that CP4 ends on 31st December 2014 and CP5 starts of 1st January 2015 tends to lessen the emphasis on the "not due to open in this control period" statement..

We are already in CP5.
CP4 ended on 31 March 2014.

 

[northwichcat]

We are already in CP5.
CP4 ended on 31 March 2014.

Indeed. A number of the CP4 projects that were due to the completed after the last election didn't finish by the end of CP4 by the time the Coalition ordered a spending review and delayed everything.

 

[Viscount702]

I recently posted on this on another thread.

The Platform has already been built. However no track has been laid to the platform and no new track work or signalling on the approach.

According to TfGM Platform 3 will be closed 11 to 16 January inclusive and the whole station from 17 January to 8 February inclusive presumably to do the above work.

So I would think the platform should be available for use sometime in late February early March. More likely will be brought into regular use for May Timetable

 

[northwichcat]

The following is from Cheshire and Warrington Local Transport Body on Rail North:

In September, the Cheshire and Warrington authorities formally agreed to
become members of both Rail North Limited (RNL) and the Association of Rail
North Partner Authorities (the “Association”). The Association will be governed
by a Leaders Committee who is meeting on Monday 10 November, including
the nominated elected members from the 3 authorities in the sub region.

In September, the Cheshire and Warrington authorities formally agreed to
become members of both Rail North Limited (RNL) and the Association of Rail
North Partner Authorities (the “Association”). The Association will be governed
by a Leaders Committee who is meeting on Monday 10 November, including
the nominated elected members from the 3 authorities in the sub region.

The first full meeting of the RNL Board of Directors is expected to take place at
the end of 2014. Voting on the board would be on the basis of one director,
one vote although it is expected that most decisions would be taken by
consensus. However, given the substantial variations in the proportions of rail
usage between the various sub-groups approval of certain key matters (mainly
relating to finance) would be reserved to the members of the Association.

http://moderngov.cheshireeast.gov.u...7403/FINAL LTB Report - Rail North Update.pdf

The same report makes reference to the franchise bidders needing to improve customer service and passenger satisfaction.

 

[LowLevel]

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...link_and_rail_networks_sub_committee_24_10_14

Lifted this from elsewhere in the forum as it's interesting to note that in the last sentence of the Northern revenue protection presentation, it states that Northern do not support the introduction of DOO in the next franchise. Perhaps it's not such an open and shut case as some would have you believe.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.transportforgreatermanch...link_and_rail_networks_sub_committee_24_10_14

Lifted this from elsewhere in the forum as it's interesting to note that in the last sentence of the Northern revenue protection presentation, it states that Northern do not support the introduction of DOO in the next franchise. Perhaps it's not such an open and shut case as some would have you believe.

It is all well and good for Northern Rail to say that they do not support the introduction of DOO operation in the next franchise, as by then Northern Rail's joint partners will have gone their separate ways.

 

[LowLevel]

Indeed so - but it's at least notable for the fact that a train operating company, specifically the one operating the service in question, has gone on public record saying that it doesn't support it.