Northern 323s instead of 350s

[Philip]

What are the main reasons for Northern opting to acquire 323s from WMR, rather than some of the spare 350s? The latter are more modern, have gangway connections and are generally better quality trains, so why have Northern gone for more 323s?

 

[Halish Railway]

What are the main reasons for Northern opting to acquire 323s from WMR, rather than some of the spare 350s? The latter are more modern, have gangway connections and are generally better quality trains, so why have Northern gone for more 323s?

A few reasons spring to mind:
• Northern already had 323s so it would have been easier to supplement an existing fleet.
• 323s are much cheaper to lease.
• For most electrified routes in the North West 323s are much more well suited as they have better acceleration and faster door cycles. Blackpool to Liverpool and Manchester are very much the outliers of where 323s could be described as unsuitable, although it’s pretty likely that the 350/2s would retain their high density seating.
• At the time owners of the 350/2s had ambitions to convert them into OLE/Battery multiple units for use elsewhere.
• The additional 323s were to be a replacement to the 319s, still presenting an upgrade.
• Whatever they decided to use would have been replaced down the line anyway (circa 2030), so they might as well have taken on something that would have reached the end of their useful life at that point.

 

[Elecman]

Also most stations on the new routes served are only long enough for 6 car 323 not 8 car 350

 

[D365]

The future of the 323s may come down to whether they need ETCS fitted within their remaining lifespan.

 

[The Planner]

The future of the 323s may come down to whether they need ETCS fitted within their remaining lifespan.

They are going to be 40 plus years old before any ETCS arrives where they run. Its a decade away minimum.

 

[Class15]

They are going to be 40 plus years old before any ETCS arrives where they run. It’s a decade away minimum.

If replacements are not there by then, will they be converted to ETCS?

 

[The Planner]

If replacements are not there by then, will they be converted to ETCS?

Depends on when ETCS arrives around Manchester and Lancashire. Id expect them to be razor blades by then.

 

[Class15]

Depends on when ETCS arrives around Manchester and Lancashire. Id expect them to be razor blades by then.

Fair enough The Planner. So would it theoretically be possible to add ETCS to them?

 

[RailWonderer]

• Northern already had 323s so it would have been easier to supplement an existing fleet.
• 323s are much cheaper to lease.

Just these two in my opinion. A common fleet and lower leasing costs. 380s are used on short distance Glasgow commuter runs as are 450s on Waterloo - Reading, the Hounslow loop services to Weybridge and other metro services when needbe without issues. Northern probably didn't want the fuss or expense of installing ASDO for 8 car units and 4 cars would have been tight for peak runs where 6 cars is standard.

 

[The Planner]

Fair enough The Planner. So would it theoretically be possible to add ETCS to them?

No idea, but like most things, if you are prepared to spend the money it could probably be done.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Northern does seem to have the plan of running 3 cars off peak and 6 cars on peak.

The fact 4 car 350s probably couldnt double up I suspect is a factor.

They would be good on the Aire Valley but likewise platforms are only being lengthened to cater for 6 car trains.

 

[Halish Railway]

They would be good on the Aire Valley but likewise platforms are only being lengthened to cater for 6 car trains.

The lack of selective door opening on the 350/2s means that they can’t do the Airedale line given that there are some platforms (Shipley in particular) that can’t even accommodate 6 carriages. The 350s have a ‘unit deselect’ function where the doors of a particular unit can be locked at a station with short platforms but there’s no such functionality for individual carriages and doors.

Just these two in my opinion. A common fleet and lower leasing costs. 380s are used on short distance Glasgow commuter runs as are 450s on Waterloo - Reading, the Hounslow loop services to Weybridge and other metro services when needbe without issues. Northern probably didn't want the fuss or expense of installing ASDO for 8 car units and 4 cars would have been tight for peak runs where 6 cars is standard.

I was under the impression that 450s often lost time when on suburban work given their slow door cycles and cautious driving style given the lack of feedback through the driving controls. 323s on the other hand can be driven quite aggressively (not unsafely though) and can have very quick door cycles, especially if the guard doesn’t step down to the platform from the back cab and has a clear line of sight of the doors.

 

[Halifaxlad]

can’t do the Airedale line given that there are some platforms (Shipley in particular) that can’t even accommodate 6 carriages.

Yet work is being done to accomodate 6 car trains at Shipley.

Its probably worth noting that for an extra 20m (if feasible) 2 350s sets could operate 8 car trains as the difference between them and 2, 331s is only 19.76 meters.