Northern £80 FPN - Blackburn

[Witton Park]

interested in this as my 19 year old daughter has just received a ticket in similar circumstances.
She travels regularly on the train from her Uni to home getting off at Preston usually as we live on the Preston side of Blackburn.
So she's used to trains, and picking up her tickets. Using the trainline to book.

However, whilst home over Easter with a mate, the decided to train in from Cherry Tree to Blackburn.
Cherry Tree is unmanned.
They had no opportunity to buy a ticket before boarding or on the train - commonplace on this route as far as I understand.
Then how do you buy a ticket at Blackburn for a train that has already gone - so they didn't know what to do - and on leaving the station were asked for there details and gave them honestly.
£80 each or prosecution.

Now my wife used the Car park at Blackburn and walks through the subway to the town occasionally. No longer - as they tried to give her a fare dodging ticket.

But my wife has been around a bit and gave them as good as they got.

My daughter and her friend are guilty of nothing other than naivety. At worst it should have been a warning, the fare itself, and perhaps a sensible admin charge of £10 for first offences.
That's if the company were interested in levying fares and educating the public to the correct methods of course when travelling from unmanned stations on unmanned trains.

Let's face it, it's the ineffective fare collection method that's the problem. When I used to travel on the line regularly in the 80s there was a conductor on every train, checking who got on and collecting the fare after each station.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome to the forum.

This does not surprise me, and as soon as I saw the layout at Blackburn, I knew instantly that Northern would set up a trap there!

I think Northern expect people to familiarise themselves with each station, and to not take a wrong turn and to ensure that they go immediately to the booking office on arrival and ask for a ticket to that station.

The last time I travelled with Northern I was not able to buy a ticket until my return journey, and I was sold a ticket "in reverse", which was technically invalid for the journey I made, presumably because the Guard didn't think I could possibly be asking for a ticket to cover my outward portion that I had already made. Yet that is what the Company expect people to do.

The law is totally on Northern's side unfortunately, they have a disproportionate amount of power (as mentioned in recent threads on this forum).

See these two threads relating to Northern's tactics at Blackburn:

• 
  Awaiting Prosecution Unit Letter from Northern Rail
  [*]Paid fare but still being taken to court

 

[maniacmartin]

Can someone with local knowledge of Blackburn point out where the ticket office is? It's not clear to me on the station plan.

Witton Park, which exit did your daughter take? The subway to the car park or the main exit?

 

[yorkie]

Can someone with local knowledge of Blackburn point out where the ticket office is? It's not clear to me on the station plan.

Witton Park, which exit did your daughter take? The subway to the car park or the main exit?

It's on the island platform. If you simply alight from a train and go to the main concourse, it's very easy to miss (how easy it is depends on which platform your train arrives on and how much you are looking at your surroundings).

When I got off a train there I just followed the crowd down the steps to the underpass and could have easily missed it, except I was taking a particular interest in looking around, so I did spot it. I immediately thought along these lines: "Northern will love this, great chance to catch people out, I wonder how long it will be before we get threads mentioning Blackburn" (the answer was: a matter of days!)

 

[bb21]

Can someone with local knowledge of Blackburn point out where the ticket office is? It's not clear to me on the station plan.

"Ticket counter" is next to the one that says "Rail Building" on the island platform. If you alight from a train on Platform 4 and are not looking out for it in particular, it is almost impossible to see it. That aside, there is usually a long queue there too.

 

[sheff1]

"Ticket counter" is next to the one that says "Rail Building" on the island platform. If you alight from a train on Platform 4 and are not looking out for it in particular, it is almost impossible to see it.

Does anyone know why the ticket office was moved ? The old office was exactly where you would expect to find it at such a prominent station.

 

[ryan125hst]

Does anyone know why the ticket office was moved ? The old office was exactly where you would expect to find it at such a prominent station.

Presumably you mean on the concourse downstairs?

It is a bit of a weird place for a ticket office, in the middle of a platform and in the open, so to speak. Are there any other stations that are like this?

 

[edwin_m]

Going by the National Rail station map, the ticket office on platform 1-3 is arguably more accessible from the car park than one at the main entrance, but anyone from either entrance catching a train at platform 4 will have to go up to platform 1-3 to buy their ticket then back down and up the other ramp.

Was the ticket office by any chance moved to make way for the "Transit Lounge Coffee Shop"? What is the purpose of a transit lounge in Blackburn? Surely people will wait at the platform, especially if they've already had to go there to get a ticket, or at the bus stop if wanting a bus!

This arrangement must also make it virtually impossible to do revenue blocks at the station.

 

[sheff1]

This arrangement must also make it virtually impossible to do revenue blocks at the station.

Oh no ... that is the issue.

Insert the word 'reasonable' before revenue and I agree entirely.

 

[yorkie]

This arrangement must also make it virtually impossible to do revenue blocks at the station.

On the contrary, it increases revenues, as it's very easy to catch people out! In fact it must be one of Northern's favourite stations for catching people out.

 

[dave87016]

Blackburn being my local station There has always been a buffet where the shop is downstairs ( used to be trekkers) where the old booking office used to be on the concourse near the station entrance is now a "messroom" for Transdev bus staff. some of the G4S staff at Blackburn are friendly and use common sense however some of the others are less friendly and tend to be unpleasant and show no common sense

 

[Starmill]

Oh no ... that is the issue.

Insert the word 'reasonable' before revenue and I agree entirely.

But what about for boarding passengers!? Who do you check?

 

[yorkie]

But what about for boarding passengers!? Who do you check?

The revenue blocks check outgoing passengers. They will be taking details of people who didn't have a ticket and arrived at the station and failed to purchase one from the ticket office. In some cases, it'll be fair enough, but in others people will be unfamiliar with the station and will simply believe that they are heading towards the ticket office, and when they reach the inspectors they will be surprised to be treated as a potential criminal.

I bet they catch loads at Blackburn, as many of the stations are unmanned and/or have no ticket machine (or a ticket machine that does not accept all payment methods etc).

Also it appears they are harassing people who go down these steps, and walking through the underpass of the station. Very sneaky! I am glad the OP's wife stood up for herself but not everyone can be assertive in these intimidating situations.

 

[edwin_m]

They couldn't do a revenue block on platform 4 though.

 

[Witton Park]

I'm actually stunned at this practise. I used to use the railways extensively in the 70s and 80s and particularly this line from Accy to Preston and onwards.

This seems like semi-legalised robbery equivalent to wheel-clampers on private car parks. The threat of Court action and a criminal record with possible fine up £1000, up to 3 months imprisonment or £80 slapped wrist Penalty.

I doubt the legality of a Fixed Penalty by a PLC such as this. the question is though is it worth taking them on for the sake of £80 and risking the consequences of losing.

It's a tough call as I fell strongly that what they are doing is unjust and disproportionate.

 

[cuccir]

I'm actually stunned at this practise. I used to use the railways extensively in the 70s and 80s and particularly this line from Accy to Preston and onwards.

This seems like semi-legalised robbery equivalent to wheel-clampers on private car parks. The threat of Court action and a criminal record with possible fine up £1000, up to 3 months imprisonment or £80 slapped wrist Penalty.

I doubt the legality of a Fixed Penalty by a PLC such as this. the question is though is it worth taking them on for the sake of £80 and risking the consequences of losing.

It's a tough call as I fell strongly that what they are doing is unjust and disproportionate.

Paying the £80 is the low risk option. It's horrid to say, but sometimes that's the best thing to do. Be aware that if your daughter does refuse to pay, and Northern to were to successfully prosecute her, then she may face a heavy fine with a criminal record, which could affect future ability to get a job.

Legally, your daughter should have gone to the ticket office and purchased a ticket. This opens the possibility for prosecution - naivety wouldn't be a defence here of course.

It's clearly up to you, but you need to be aware of the worst possible outcomes if you don't pay!

 

[kieron]

I doubt the legality of a Fixed Penalty by a PLC such as this. the question is though is it worth taking them on for the sake of £80 and risking the consequences of losing.

It's a tough call as I fell strongly that what they are doing is unjust and disproportionate.

Unfortunately, the laws relating to railway travel are unjust.

Does the letter she was sent just ask for £80? If so, your daughter may like to contact Northern first, and follow any advice they give. If she could not see the ticket office from where she alighted, and she did not pass any signs advertising the location of the ticket office before meeting the RPI, she may turn out not to be the sort of person for whom the £80 penalty was designed after all.

 

[sheff1]

Also it appears they are harassing people who go down these steps, and walking through the underpass of the station. Very sneaky! I am glad the OP's wife stood up for herself but not everyone can be assertive in these intimidating situations.

It is worse than sneaky. I will not need to be in Blackburn for the foreseeable future, but next time I am there I will make a point of using these steps and see what happens.

 

[12CSVT]

It is worse than sneaky.

Absolutely spot on. In fact this is probably one of the worst cases of legalised entrapment imaginable.

 

[silencio]

I hadn't thought about this previously, but Blackburn is a horrible station. People could quite easily get caught out with this.

 

[All Line Rover]

Legally, your daughter should have gone to the ticket office and purchased a ticket. This opens the possibility for prosecution - naivety wouldn't be a defence here of course.

I don't know whether the OPs daughter was thinking "hmm... I can't see a ticket office anywhere so I'll take that as a free ride" (so walked to the entrance/exit) or whether she thought "I need a ticket and I bet the ticket office is at the entrance of the station" (so walked to the entrance/exit). If it was the latter, whilst she is in the crazy situation that paying the £80 'fine' remains the best option, why doesn't she complain to Passenger Focus and the DfT about Northern's tactics? The worst that will happen is she'll be fobbed off.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I don't know whether the OPs daughter was thinking "hmm... I can't see a ticket office anywhere so I'll take that as a free ride" (so walked to the entrance/exit) or whether she thought "I need a ticket and I bet the ticket office is at the entrance of the station" (so walked to the entrance/exit). If it was the latter, whilst she is in the crazy situation that paying the £80 'fine' remains the best option, why doesn't she complain to Passenger Focus and the DfT about Northern's tactics? The worst that will happen is she'll be fobbed off.

I should have thought that if you were still trying to locate the ticket office you can largely ignore the RPI. If he asks for your ticket you say you've come from an unstaffed station then you say you're trying to find the ticket office - or would be happy to pay him. Otherwise I don't believe he can even ask for your name and address since he requires *reasonable* suspicion that you've broken the byelaws, which he doesn't have if you're trying to find where to pay. To satisfy the RoRA you offer to pay him your fare.

 

[30907]

Having all the offices on Platforms 1-3 made good sense on the original assumption that westbound trains would normally use P3 (remember, P4 has only recently acquired a canopy). As there is a TVM at the foot of the ramp to P4 (supplemented by staff in the peak) I think passengers are adequately catered for.

The only checks I have ever seen have been at the top of the 1-3 ramp and the bottom of the 4 ramp, in the peaks, but I assume that both the checks the OP refers to were made somewhere in the subway.

That said, if the OP's daughter had only ever seen Blackburn station from the town side (and that's plausible, even with our local bus fares!) she might have expected the ticket office to be in the old building; if she had alighted from the front of the train she could well have failed to notice the ticket office or the signs (which are of course placed to benefit people entering the station not leaving); and if she had then left towards the town centre not the cinema, she wouldn't have passed the TVM either.

If (and only if) all these are the case, then I think this is one of the (few?) cases where Northern's £80 charge has been unreasonable.

At the very least write a strongly worded letter or several - but probably when/after paying up!

If it's any encouragement, my wife last winter failed to see that Northern had put a pay-and-display on the car park at Blackburn (you try and spot the machine on a dark, snowy morning!) and collected a penalty notice, appealed and won.

 

[island]

I'm actually stunned at this practise. I used to use the railways extensively in the 70s and 80s and particularly this line from Accy to Preston and onwards.

This seems like semi-legalised robbery equivalent to wheel-clampers on private car parks. The threat of Court action and a criminal record with possible fine up £1000, up to 3 months imprisonment or £80 slapped wrist Penalty.

I doubt the legality of a Fixed Penalty by a PLC such as this. the question is though is it worth taking them on for the sake of £80 and risking the consequences of losing.

It's a tough call as I fell strongly that what they are doing is unjust and disproportionate.

Several issues with this. 1. Northern is not a PLC, although it is a limited company and its management has a legal obligation to try to maximise its profits. 2. Failing to pay for your train ticket is a criminal offence whereas parking on private land (probably) isn't. 3. If the £80 penalty were not legal, wouldn't the OFT/Trading Standards/the ORR have stepped in and stopped them by now? 4. The passenger has the option to have their day in court before the magistrates.

 

[jkdd77]

I'm actually stunned at this practise. I used to use the railways extensively in the 70s and 80s and particularly this line from Accy to Preston and onwards.

This seems like semi-legalised robbery equivalent to wheel-clampers on private car parks. The threat of Court action and a criminal record with possible fine up £1000, up to 3 months imprisonment or £80 slapped wrist Penalty.

I doubt the legality of a Fixed Penalty by a PLC such as this. the question is though is it worth taking them on for the sake of £80 and risking the consequences of losing.

It's a tough call as I fell strongly that what they are doing is unjust and disproportionate.

Since the OP feels so strongly about it, one alternative option would be for his/her daughter to pay the £80 'under protest', making clear that it is paid under protest, without any admission of liability, in order to avoid prosecution, wait six months [so that they can't then go back and prosecute], and then sue in the county courts for a refund of the difference between the £80 and the correct fare due [if not already paid].

I largely re-quote from my own post on a previous thread:
http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=81001

It appears from MSE that it appears that one person paid a "byelaw 14" fixed penalty for parking "under protest", waited six months (to avoid the possibility of prosecution), and then sued in county court for their money back, which was settled out of court with the TOC paying up.

I can't now find the actual thread in question, but have found a reference to the said thread in the final post of this thread by 'IainMcCulloch': http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4175183

The claim was seemingly made on the basis that:
the amount was paid unwillingly and under protest solely due to the threat of prosecution, and without consideration for the payment;
(unlike with penalty fares, which have statutory backing) there was not a statutory basis for the imposition of the so-called "fixed penalty";
(unlike with bank charges) there was not a valid contractual basis for the imposition of the "fixed penalty";
the "fixed penalty" was not, and was not claimed to be, a genuine pre-estimate of the TOC's losses or administration costs, but rather was extortionate and designed to punish, and English common law does not generally allow the imposition of penalty charges (e.g Dunlop v New Motor Co).

It may be worth the OP trying to send a pm to the MSE poster in question, with a view to possibly going down the same route. However, this post is made for information only, and is neither a recommendation nor an endorsement of this approach.

I don't believe that the failure of the supposed regulatory bodies to prevent Northern's quasi-PF scheme in any way implies that it is legal- they allowed certain TOCs to impose evening restrictions on certain regulated (Super) Off-Peak tickets in contravention of fares regulation for a period of several years (in some cases) before belatedly steppping in.

Health warning: One passenger tried this with an actual penalty fare, (i.e. paying up under protest, waiting six months and then suing afterwards), the claim was fully defended by the TOC, and dismissed by the court, leaving the claimant out of pocket.

If the OP's daughter was unsuccessful, she would not only lose the 'claim fee' and 'hearing fee', but also most likely be required to pay Northern Rail's costs. However, there would be no risk of a criminal conviction, whereas, if the OP's daughter refused to pay the £80, this would be a very real possibility indeed.

 

[185]

Have my suspicions Blackburn Trading Standards heard about this today.

Just a hunch :P

 

[W230]

I should have thought that if you were still trying to locate the ticket office you can largely ignore the RPI. If he asks for your ticket you say you've come from an unstaffed station then you say you're trying to find the ticket office - or would be happy to pay him. Otherwise I don't believe he can even ask for your name and address since he requires *reasonable* suspicion that you've broken the byelaws, which he doesn't have if you're trying to find where to pay. To satisfy the RoRA you offer to pay him your fare.

I think the RPI would have their reasonable suspicion, just that it had been incorrectly formed or that it could never be proved as more than suspicion.

Since the OP feels so strongly about it, one alternative option would be for his/her daughter to pay the £80 'under protest', making clear that it is paid under protest, without any admission of liability, in order to avoid prosecution, wait six months [so that they can't then go back and prosecute], and then sue in the county courts for a refund of the difference between the £80 and the correct fare due [if not already paid].

I don't know how it works with Northern Rail's Penalty Notices, but for Fixed Penalty Notices for disposal of criminal offences (such as public order/low level theft etc), acceptance of the ticket is not an acceptance of guilt although for the ticket to be issued in the first place there must be sufficient evidence to support a prosecution. I wonder if this is the thinking in Northern's eyes? Either way, I would think that there is insufficient evidence given the set up at Blackburn (unless someone digs a hole for themself)!

 

[neilmc]

I'm actually stunned at this practise. I used to use the railways extensively in the 70s and 80s and particularly this line from Accy to Preston and onwards.

This seems like semi-legalised robbery equivalent to wheel-clampers on private car parks. The threat of Court action and a criminal record with possible fine up £1000, up to 3 months imprisonment or £80 slapped wrist Penalty.

I doubt the legality of a Fixed Penalty by a PLC such as this. the question is though is it worth taking them on for the sake of £80 and risking the consequences of losing.

It's a tough call as I fell strongly that what they are doing is unjust and disproportionate.

I also used to live in Blackburn and, at that time, it was perfectly obvious where the ticket office was, in the station concourse where any sensible person would expect it to be.

I regard Northern as a lazy, incompetent gang of fraudsters who are incapable of providing adequate ticket offices or fare collections on trains since they can reap far more by stealing £80s from the unwary than by doing their job.

I would love to see thir franchise terminated immediately for fraudulent practice and their senior managers handed long prison sentences
but it seems that the rail industry is totally ring-fenced from proper consumer legislation.

 

[yorkie]

I would love to see thir franchise terminated immediately....

No chance! I heard the DfT actually asked Northern to carry out these sting operations, in the mistaken belief that it would reduce subsidy (of course, their calculations did not assume anyone would be put of travelling, and they're not far off as most people have no choice)

Northern claim to have consulted with BTP, Passenger Focus etc, but they denied having taken part in any consultation.

It's all very fishy, but what can we do? There isn't an effective ombudsman for us to complain to!

 

[northwichcat]

Somewhere on the web there's an FOI request to DfT regarding whether they approved a penalty fare system for Northern Rail. In response to which DfT say they support TOCs trying to reduce fare evasion. However, they also say DfT have not discussed or approved any form of penalty fare system for Northern Rail and they would welcome talks with Northern about the approach they are undertaking.