Northern’s low threshold for skipping stops?

[thealexweb]

This week I have been travelling from Lostock to Burnage. Two of the four morning journeys have been effected by Northern removing station stops presumably to prevent knock on delays.
Monday’s 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport skipped Burnage due to a delay of 17 minutes and today’s 08:04 ran express too due to a delay of only nine minutes.

Is this quite a low threshold to remove multiple stops? So frustrating as the next service cannot get me to the Christie’s for 9am. I had spend £19 on a taxi on Monday

 

[Peterthegreat]

This week I have been travelling from Lostock to Burnage. Two of the four morning journeys have been effected by Northern removing station stops presumably to prevent knock on delays.
Monday’s 08:04 Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport skipped Burnage due to a delay of 17 minutes and today’s 08:04 ran express too due to a delay of only nine minutes.

Is this quite a low threshold to remove multiple stops? So frustrating as the next service cannot get me to the Christie’s for 9am. I had spend £19 on a taxi on Monday

I agree. I've known northern cut out all intermediate stops between Meadowhall and Wakefield Westgate due to late running.
The train was on time passing Swinton and stood ten mins at South Kirby Jn waiting time.

 

[VT 390]

I agree its frustrating when services skip booked station calls, I have been on a few Northern services on the Sheffield to Barnsley and Manchester to Liverpool (via both Widnes and Earlestown) where services have skipped stations.
However, given the short turn around time at MIA (Manchester Airport) of only 7 minutes for your service and the interaction with other services on its return journey both through Castlefield and Chat Moss routes it would appear to be the best option for service recovery and majority of passengers, to try to provide an near on time departure from MIA at 08:32.

Also, while not ideal for you there is a stopping service to MIA less than 30 minutes later departing MAN (Manchester Piccadilly) at 08:36 so in this case it is not as bad for passengers as skipping stops on an hourly frequency route.
EDY (East Didsbury) and HDG (Heald Green) even had alternative (slightly delayed) services arriving from MAN within a few minutes your delayed services original booked times, so it is only the other 3 stations (and local journeys between them) that were mostly affected.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I see the stops on the Atherton line or the part to Headbolt Lane cancelled quite often in delays, although generally for the stops on the Atherton line if has to be >20 mins

 

[norbitonflyer]

SWR's threshold seems to be considerably less than nine minutes - and often to no avail as they still have to join the procession of stoppers closer to Waterloo, so fail to make up any time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem Northern has is twofold - no ability to put in recovery in Manchester because there aren't the platforms (unlike New St which is criticised for this in another thread but actually does put in recovery to good effect) and excessively complex diagramming. With both of those things the case, delays can't be left to accumulate in the way they can on a TOC that e.g. operates self contained diagrams doing country terminus to London terminus when it'll recover at the next terminus layover, and if it takes two trips to recover it doesn't matter because there's no knock-on onto half the country due to things being in the wrong order over Castlefield.

Merseyrail is not dissimilar, though it used to get things back on time by cancelling round trips rather than semifast running it seems to prefer the latter now. In Northern's case semifast running is probably better due to the low frequencies meaning a couple of cancellations mean very long gaps.

Thameslink sort of is too, but that seems just to be allowed to run late.

 

[whoosh]

I don't think 17 minutes is low, no. Nine minutes is more debateable, but a (not popular) decision has to be made sometimes that a train will be in the way of others if not in it's path, as well as possibly running around late on multiple later trips.

 

[Haywain]

Thameslink sort of is too, but that seems just to be allowed to run late.

Skipping stops due to delays is by no means unusual on Thameslink.

 

[tram21]

EMR have started doing more skip-stopping, especially on Intercity services skipping many stations.

 

[tbtc]

Is there any penalty for a state run TOC to skip stops?

My understanding was that private sector TOCs were penalized for things like this/ terminating short. But I don't know if there's any incentive in the case of Northern these days

As ever. It's a case of The Greater Good. Same with holding connections (you might delay a branch line train by a few minutes to meet the late running London service, but be less flexible about delaying the London train if branch line service is delayed).

It's no consolation but presumably the unit doing the 08:04 from Piccadilly to the Airport will pick up more as the 08:32 back towards the city centre, given general peak flows. I certainly sympathise with those wanting stations in suburban Manchester, and have argued with so many trains running non stop to the Airport whilst local stations see half hour gaps, but that's another story

 

[Haywain]

Is there any penalty for a state run TOC to skip stops?

My understanding was that private sector TOCs were penalized for things like this/ terminating short. But I don't know if there's any incentive in the case of Northern these days

I don’t believe the the change of ownership has had any impact on the delta attribution process. As understand it a “fail to call” still counts as a cancellation.

 

[amahy]

The problem Northern has is twofold - no ability to put in recovery in Manchester because there aren't the platforms (unlike New St which is criticised for this in another thread but actually does put in recovery to good effect) and excessively complex diagramming. With both of those things the case, delays can't be left to accumulate in the way they can on a TOC that e.g. operates self contained diagrams doing country terminus to London terminus when it'll recover at the next terminus layover, and if it takes two trips to recover it doesn't matter because there's no knock-on onto half the country due to things being in the wrong order over Castlefield.

I’m not sure lack of recovery and complex diagrams are entirely the problem. An example of this is the Wigan to Leeds via Atherton and Brighouse service, which often skips stations between Todmorden and Manchester, or stations between Salford and Wigan, despite having nearly an hour turnaround time at Wigan Wallgate. And the service is self contained, with 6 trains going back and forth all day.

 

[Haywain]

An example of this is the Wigan to Leeds via Atherton and Brighouse service, which often skips stations between Todmorden and Manchester, or stations between Salford and Wigan, despite having nearly an hour turnaround time at Wigan Wallgate. And the service is self contained, with 6 trains going back and forth all day.

Turnround times are not just about rolling stock, but about drivers and guards as well. You can't see these from the timetable and they are very frequently different and, in the case you have chosen, likely to be shorter.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The fundamental issue with the Airport-Piccadilly line is that there are too many trains and so there's little or no room for delay management. With the stopper it isn't even that the stopper itself being delayed is an issue, its that there are another 3-4 expresses all stacked up behind it. Before you know where you are, the delay on the stopper is cascaded as far away as York.

It all stems from the Deansgate-Castlefield corridor, which really is trying to get a quart into a pint pot.

 

[Bikeman78]

SWR's threshold seems to be considerably less than nine minutes - and often to no avail as they still have to join the procession of stoppers closer to Waterloo, so fail to make up any time.

In my experience, SWR is by far the worst. I've seen Reading trains run non stop from Waterloo to Staines because they are 10 minutes late. They are have 26 to 28 minutes at Reading so they could be as much as 20 late and still come back on time. As for the Shepperton line, I would never trust the service. See these examples. The 1912 is particularly grim. It's a very busy train. I'm sure that passengers at Clapham and Wimbledon were delighted to see it fly past only to wait at Teddington for three minutes.

Realtime Trains | 2H57 1912 London Waterloo to Shepperton | 30/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 2H57 1912 departure from London Waterloo to Shepperton on 30/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2H23 1042 London Waterloo to Shepperton | 03/02/2026

Real-time train running information for 2H23 1042 departure from London Waterloo to Shepperton on 03/02/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Haywain]

They are have 26 to 28 minutes at Reading so they could be as much as 20 late and still come back on time.

Could they? Or will they just lose more time through not being in the correct path and cause delays to later services?

 

[amahy]

In my experience, SWR is by far the worst. I've seen Reading trains run non stop from Waterloo to Staines because they are 10 minutes late. They are have 26 to 28 minutes at Reading so they could be as much as 20 late and still come back on time. As for the Shepperton line, I would never trust the service. See these examples. The 1912 is particularly grim. It's a very busy train. I'm sure that passengers at Clapham and Wimbledon were delighted to see it fly past only to wait at Teddington for three minutes.

The North Clyde Line on Scotrail can be similar to this, and sometimes completely the opposite! I’ve seen Balloch trains turned back at Dumbarton Central less than 10 minutes late, and on other occasions, 20 minute late Balloch trains allowed to complete their journey, ending up 15+ minutes late on their way back to Glasgow! It can be wildly inconsistent at times.

 

[Tetchytyke]

They are have 26 to 28 minutes at Reading so they could be as much as 20 late and still come back on time.

That's probably the case for the Reading train, but not so much for the trains all stacked up behind it.

 

[Bikeman78]

Could they? Or will they just lose more time through not being in the correct path and cause delays to later services?

Well yes. One of the 455 workings at the start of the year was around 20 late and still came back right time. West of Staines, there is very little to get in the way. The stoppers to Teddington via Richmond depart from Waterloo 10 minutes behind the Reading train. At 10 minutes late, the Reading would still get to the two track section at Barnes first. At Feltham, there's no conflict with the Windsor or the Weybridge, so no problem there. It would even get through Wokingham without conflict. A controller should know this, or at least be able to work it out. Missing out the two most popular stops for little benefit is bizarre. If the service ran every 10 minutes, fair enough, but not when it's half hourly. Ironically, the Shenfield 315s which ran every 10 minutes did far less skip stopping. Maybe the Elizabeth line does it more now. I've not been out that way much in recent years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Feb 2026 ==

That's probably the case for the Reading train, but not so much for the trains all stacked up behind it.

But it's the fastest train on the route, apart from Wokingham to Reading, so nothing will get stacked up behind. If it followed the train from Gatwick from Wokingham, it could still just about make departure time at Reading.

 

[Horizon22]

SWR's threshold seems to be considerably less than nine minutes - and often to no avail as they still have to join the procession of stoppers closer to Waterloo, so fail to make up any time.

Sometimes you have to attempt to do things with best endeavours as it is never exact how much a train will make up by running fast. A controller will broadly know based on experience but then it depends on a range of other factors including driving style, booked clashes, regulation policy, and any other late running that may impact it. All of these are not always easily calculable.

Is there any penalty for a state run TOC to skip stops?

My understanding was that private sector TOCs were penalized for things like this/ terminating short. But I don't know if there's any incentive in the case of Northern these days

Delay attribution hasn’t changed. It might be that the “state run TOC” is running fast due to an issue with a private freight operator, publicly owned NR or their own issue.

As ever. It's a case of The Greater Good. Same with holding connections (you might delay a branch line train by a few minutes to meet the late running London service, but be less flexible about delaying the London train if branch line service is delayed).

Some TOCs have better branch connectional policies than others - GWR in Devon and Cornwall are good. But as you say it depends on capacity to do that and any knock on impacts to the held train which may cause its own connection problems.

In my experience, SWR is by far the worst. I've seen Reading trains run non stop from Waterloo to Staines because they are 10 minutes late. They are have 26 to 28 minutes at Reading so they could be as much as 20 late and still come back on time. As for the Shepperton line, I would never trust the service. See these examples. The 1912 is particularly grim. It's a very busy train. I'm sure that passengers at Clapham and Wimbledon were delighted to see it fly past only to wait at Teddington for three minutes.

Realtime Trains | 2H57 1912 London Waterloo to Shepperton | 30/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 2H57 1912 departure from London Waterloo to Shepperton on 30/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2H23 1042 London Waterloo to Shepperton | 03/02/2026

Real-time train running information for 2H23 1042 departure from London Waterloo to Shepperton on 03/02/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Turnaround time whilst a factor is not the only one in making service decisions. Another key one is whether if the train continues to run as booked and has lost a path it will lose even more time. Also any crew or infrastructure risks that influence the decision, as well as a myriad of other factors.

 

[Snow1964]

I don’t believe the the change of ownership has had any impact on the delta attribution process. As understand it a “fail to call” still counts as a cancellation.

Northern Performance statistics are very confusing (to me anyway)

Services planned 70,513
Services operated 67,813
Then says all services cancelled 2058 (2.9%)

Our performance

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Can someone please explain the 642 services that weren't operated, or cancelled, but unless my maths is wrong, have apparently vanished into the ether.

 

[norbitonflyer]

A controller will broadly know based on experience

The SWR controllers should have enough experience by now to realise that skip-stopping a London-bound service will not n=make up any time unless they switch it to the fast lines. They've tried often enough!

I have some sympathy for them doing it, in the up direction anyway, if the following train is close behind, as it will help to redistribute passengers between the two trains instead of having them all cram into the late running first one (which will not only be uncomfortable but increase dwell times down the line). In that case, you essentially have two trainloads waiting (as those expecfting to catch the second one will have already joined those still waiting for the first one), so best to have everyone for the intermediate stations use the second one, and everyone for the terminus use the first. Obviously you run fast from the last station on the branch (e.g Norbiton, Motspur Park), and definitely not from Teddington

 

[Horizon22]

Northern Performance statistics are very confusing (to me anyway)

Services planned 70,513
Services operated 67,813
Then says all services cancelled 2058 (2.9%)

Our performance

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Can someone please explain the 642 services that weren't operated, or cancelled, but unless my maths is wrong, have apparently vanished into the ether.

Might be some sneaky PG'ing which alters the stats perhaps?

 

[Snow1964]

posted twice

 

[Murray J]

Skipping stops due to delays is by no means unusual on Thameslink.

Realtime Trains | 9T21 0916 Bedford to Brighton | 31/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 9T21 0916 departure from Bedford to Brighton on 31/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I was on this Thameslink service between Gatwick and Brighton a few weekends ago and (despite there only being 2tph running between Three Bridges and Brighton due to the Cambridge line being closed due to engineering works) it ran fast between Three Bridges and Brighton despite "only" being 13L, to the extent where it arrived into Brighton on time. Useful for me but probably didn't amuse anyone waiting at Haywards Heath.

 

[Efini92]

The fundamental issue with the Airport-Piccadilly line is that there are too many trains and so there's little or no room for delay management. With the stopper it isn't even that the stopper itself being delayed is an issue, its that there are another 3-4 expresses all stacked up behind it. Before you know where you are, the delay on the stopper is cascaded as far away as York.

It all stems from the Deansgate-Castlefield corridor, which really is trying to get a quart into a pint pot.

Agreed, it’s been a problem since the airport became the centre of the universe.
Really there needs to be 4 tracks on the styal line and from Piccadilly to ordsall lane.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Realtime Trains | 9T21 0916 Bedford to Brighton | 31/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 9T21 0916 departure from Bedford to Brighton on 31/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I was on this Thameslink service between Gatwick and Brighton a few weekends ago and (despite there only being 2tph running between Three Bridges and Brighton due to the Cambridge line being closed due to engineering works) it ran fast between Three Bridges and Brighton despite "only" being 13L, to the extent where it arrived into Brighton on time. Useful for me but probably didn't amuse anyone waiting at Haywards Heath.

One time I had a 17 minute late Northern from Wigan to Southport at the start of a Merseyrail day trip (last year when they offered the £2 day ticket) but we ran fast and arrived pretty much on time.

 

[MontyP]

In my experience, SWR is by far the worst. I've seen Reading trains run non stop from Waterloo to Staines because they are 10 minutes late. They are have 26 to 28 minutes at Reading so they could be as much as 20 late and still come back on time. As for the Shepperton line, I would never trust the service. See these examples. The 1912 is particularly grim. It's a very busy train. I'm sure that passengers at Clapham and Wimbledon were delighted to see it fly past only to wait at Teddington for three minutes.

Realtime Trains | 2H57 1912 London Waterloo to Shepperton | 30/01/2026

Real-time train running information for 2H57 1912 departure from London Waterloo to Shepperton on 30/01/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 2H23 1042 London Waterloo to Shepperton | 03/02/2026

Real-time train running information for 2H23 1042 departure from London Waterloo to Shepperton on 03/02/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The Sheppertons are notorious for this (in both directions) - the diagrams are self-contained with very short turnaround times at both ends. They even took out the Earlsfield stops to try and get a bit of recovery time (though how that helps on the inward journey, sandwiched between two other services at minimum headways that do stop there, I don't understand). Were the self-contained diagrams a legacy of the Class 707 introduction? Maybe they will be recast when the 701 rollout is complete and the suburban timetable is revised.

 

[talldave]

SWR's threshold seems to be considerably less than nine minutes - and often to no avail as they still have to join the procession of stoppers closer to Waterloo, so fail to make up any time.

...and crawl through Clapham Junction so slowly you could literally jump off. Fond memories of the slam door era!!

 

[Haywain]

The Sheppertons are notorious for this (in both directions) - the diagrams are self-contained with very short turnaround times at both ends.

They are pretty much self contained for rolling stock, so that any delay that isn't recovered by skipping stops will lead to cancellations because time can't be made up in any other way, but they are not self contained for drivers and guards so delays do get exported to other routes.