Northen Rail False Fare Evasion Claim HELP PLEASE!!

[142094]

Sorry - it's not section 6 then.
sorry

Didn't mean that comment to come across in the way it seemed. Looking at the copy I have it is not section 6.

The bye-laws do state that you must have a valid ticket, and that you can buy on board where there is a sign stating so, however there must be hundreds of stations that do not have these signs and people still do buy on board.

 

[yorkie]

I'll throw in my two pennies worth.
Seeing that you were in the wrong technically, I can see you paying the penalty fare.....

He was not charged a Penalty Fare and Northern do not operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

National Express, who do run a PF scheme, state something that you may find useful (link):

A penalty fare is simply a charge that National Express East Anglia is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare. ‘Fare dodging’ is a completely different matter. It is a criminal offence and we treat it as such by prosecuting offenders under criminal law.

... it's too time consuming and costly for minor matters like this...

Not true. My understanding is that TOCs are in the unusual situation of being able to take people to court completely free of charge to the TOC, all paid for out of public funds if they lose. I base that on several news stories where there has been outrage that a TOC has not had to pay anything despite losing the case. I think this is morally wrong and unjustifiable, and I know many others do too, but that's the way it is, as far as I know. See this news story; Southern Railway doesn't pay for pointless prosecution.

AFAIK this isn't a penalty fares area and outside of penalty fares areas, it is ok to board without a ticket, isnt it?

Again, I don't think it was at all helpful for scrapy to try to bring this issue into what did or didn't happen at Burscough into this, and it's best not to open a can of worms with a response like this either. It could go round and round in circles (as it has before) and achieve nothing.

Sorry, not the law, but the NRCoC

and conveniently left out the bit about what happens to you if you don't do that. (Clue: asked to buy a ticket). This is irrelevant, the OP was invited to purchase a ticket for his journey (in line with NCoC) but instead purchased a ticket for a tiny segment of his journey. That is the issue.

... you can still pay for a full fare single/return.

Yes, agreed, if he had asked for a ticket (or combination of tickets!) to cover him for his actual journey, everything would have been fine. Unfortunately, he didn't and only paid for the end part.

I guess an equivalent (Sorry, I know some people hate these! In which case, look away now!) might be to go to a supermarket checkout where the operator is blind and can't see what you have in your basket, you then only state a tiny fraction of what you have got, and they ask for a small amount, you pay it, and then you are spotted by a security guard. In fact, the laws on railway ticketing are so strict you'd probably get a lesser punishment for shoplifting.

 

[Tufty]

There is no gateline barrier at Salford Cresent however, they may have G4S staff there at peak. Sounds like you got caught in the revenue block last week (not sure what day). If that was the case best of luck. Hope it works out for you (out of court). If not as said before it's around a £300 fine plus costs plus the cost of your ticket and a criminal record.

 

[yorkie]

To go back to this quote....

... it's too time consuming and costly for minor matters like this...

It isn't.

But predicting the winner isn't always easy.

Example 1
5 years ago a Northern conductor sold a ticket to Burley in Wharfedale, to a person he knew (and perhaps didn't like?), who lived in Burley in Wharfedale. However the conductor later reported that he believed this person got off at the next stop. There was no CCTV, no witnesses, just the guard's word against his. As he was a law student he represented himself. Big mistake as he lost the case. See Law student gets £1,000 bill

Example 2
At around the same time, a passenger asked for a ticket from Burley Park at Leeds, however as there was a full ticket check there, staff were suspicious and asked for her name and address. She had recently moved from living near Burley Park to living near Headingley (one stop further out) and gave her old address without thinking, they then discovered this was not her present address and prosecuted her for attempting to pay a fare 10p less than was correct. She won the case. Passenger_innocent_of_10p_fare_dodge

And for those who say it's not worth the TOCs persuing cases like this, that is incorrect because, as far as I know, the cost of bringing about these cases, which were over a few pence, were funded by taxpayers, not the TOCs. So why should Northern decide it's not good value? It's taxpayers money, not their money, that is used. So it's not good advice to say to passengers "don't worry, TOC's won't prosecute over that, it's just a few pence/quid" because they may well do.

In both cases as a taxpayer I object to my money being wasted on that, but it's not up to me, there's nothing I can do to stop it. We may see it as "too costly and time consuming" but those arguments do not apply to the TOCs so it's an irrelevance here.

Applying common sense, I'd have expected in case 1 for the customer to win, and in case 2 for the TOC to win (though I'm glad the TOC lost) however common sense does not necessarily predict accurately a courts' decision, and the result was the opposite in both cases.

 

[strange6]

Thanks for all that Yorkie. I really do learn some stuff on this forum; much obliged.
Well, I think the best thing the OP can do is get on bended knees, grovel and apologise profusely to Northern. And if they insist on taking him to court, threaten them with some bad publicity in the Newspapers!

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for all that Yorkie. I really do learn some stuff on this forum; much obliged.

You're welcome and... so do I! More so than I ever imagined 6 years ago when I suggested making it.

Well, I think the best thing the OP can do is get on bended knees, grovel and apologise profusely to Northern.

Agreed.

And if they insist on taking him to court, threaten them with some bad publicity in the Newspapers!

I wouldn't as I doubt they'd stop the case based on such a threat (I could be wrong, but really, I do doubt it!) and also I also doubt the 'papers would be very interested in this case case.

 

[MichaelAMW]

But predicting the winner isn't always easy.

Example 1
5 years ago a Northern conductor sold a ticket to Burley in Wharfedale, to a person he knew (and perhaps didn't like?), who lived in Burley in Wharfedale. However the conductor later reported that he believed this person got off at the next stop. There was no CCTV, no witnesses, just the guard's word against his. As he was a law student he represented himself. Big mistake as he lost the case. See Law student gets £1,000 bill

Inded, thanks to Yorkie for highlighting this.

I have to say that, assuming the report is accurate, i.e. nothing except the guard's word against his *and* the fact he he alighted at his home station, I find this story rather disturbing.

 

[tempests1]

I cant add anymore to what anyone has said, I just hope the guy is not too harshly dealt with. One thing is for sure he will not say that he has come from the previous station again (Unless he actually has!). When I worked on the barriers at Guildford we used to get people coming up on a Sunday just after the Ascot via Aldershot train had come in saying they had got on the train at Wanborough (No Sunday service!!!!). They would really argue the point NO NO I really did until you say actually the station does not have a service today. I think they were put forward for prosecution. You would get the same with Worplesdon also closed on a Sunday some would be silly & say oh sorry I am confused & say Woking (barriers on both sides & manned from 06:20 to 23:00) you would be like stop messing me about & say which station you have actually come from. We would also get them to describe the station such as where the entrance is located, what the building looked like etc etc. One idiot told me that they used the Subway at Worplesdon (small wayside station) to get to the Guildford Platform there is no subway & probably never will be!!

 

[Ferret]

Yorkie, certainly where my employers are concerned, it isn't the taxpayer who pays the court costs - it's the defendant (so long as my employers win of course).

As for boarding a train without a ticket, it is a breach of railway byelaws to board a train without one unless there were no facilities to buy a ticket beforehand. Not that the railway companies enforce this byelaw under normal circumstances, but it does still exist!

 

[colpepper]

As for boarding a train without a ticket, it is a breach of railway byelaws to board a train without one unless there were no facilities to buy a ticket beforehand.

GC offer walk on tickets at stations with ticket offices. Are bylaws optional?

 

[cuccir]

GC offer walk on tickets at stations with ticket offices. Are bylaws optional?

As 142094 said, the bye-laws do state that you must have a valid ticket, and that you can buy on board where there is a sign stating so; Grand Central have numerous notices/announcements allowing you to buy on board.

 

[142094]

As 142094 said, the bye-laws do state that you must have a valid ticket, and that you can buy on board where there is a sign stating so; Grand Central have numerous notices/announcements allowing you to buy on board.

Problem is I've never seen a sign at most of the stations that GC call at, at least if they are there they are not that visible. For example if I go to York station, the only place I can think of where there are any GC information is in the ticket office, a small stand on platform 3 and a small stand on between platform 6 and 7.

The general rule it seems is that you can buy full fare tickets on board unless a station is in a penalty fare zone or has barriers (or there is no ticket office etc...). I've never heard of anyone getting on a train at a staffed station and not being able to buy either a full fare single or return ticket.

 

[yorkie]

GC offer walk on tickets at stations with ticket offices. Are bylaws optional?

It's only enforced to the extent that you "must" buy before you board on PF trains from PF stations, look at the departure boards at Euston & King's Cross, and you'll see what I mean. Most TOCs permit purchasing full-fare tickets on board, and some TOCs permit the full range on board.

On the boards at KGX you'll see "Tickets for sale on board" which means the full range, or something like "You must have a ticket before boarding" on FCC trains. EC are unadvertised either way because it would be confusing otherwise, but Anytimes are available on board.

 

[YorkshireBear]

i use burley park alot and it can be a problem that they dont believe you, but usually goes, where did you come from? burley park *look at me funny* i'm going to york though and they suddenly realise im probably not lying and stop judging me.

 

[Duncan]

my daughter was in exaclty the same circumstance re northern rail short fare ie boarded at one station but inadvertantly stated another closer one due to intimidating and confusiing questions by bullying Northern rail security staff.
They have a zero tolerance policy and will take you to court - if you plead guilyt you will have a crimal conviction for fraud - can you cope with that. We tried to negotiate apologise etc etc to no avail
To cut a long story short they have to prove a positive intent to defraud.
We employed a solicitor N Hammond from Tates in Leeds who had sucessfully defended a simialr case a few years ago - excellent guy
The case went to magistrates court and due to an excellent defence my daughter was found not guilty and her costs have been settled by the central fund ie nothing for her to pay.
Hope this helps
If you want to know more just post further questions
Good luck
Duncan

 

[Ferret]

my daughter was in exaclty the same circumstance re northern rail short fare ie boarded at one station but inadvertantly stated another closer one due to intimidating and confusiing questions by bullying Northern rail security staff.
They have a zero tolerance policy and will take you to court - if you plead guilyt you will have a crimal conviction for fraud - can you cope with that. We tried to negotiate apologise etc etc to no avail
To cut a long story short they have to prove a positive intent to defraud.
We employed a solicitor N Hammond from Tates in Leeds who had sucessfully defended a simialr case a few years ago - excellent guy
The case went to magistrates court and due to an excellent defence my daughter was found not guilty and her costs have been settled by the central fund ie nothing for her to pay.
Hope this helps
If you want to know more just post further questions
Good luck
Duncan

In what way did Northern's staff (or more likely Northern's hired hands from G4S) bully your daughter? Although I've never had dealings with them, I'd imagine that they'd just ask 'where did you travel from?', which should be quite a straightforward question!

 

[Goldfish62]

It's only enforced to the extent that you "must" buy before you board on PF trains from PF stations, look at the departure boards at Euston & King's Cross, and you'll see what I mean. Most TOCs permit purchasing full-fare tickets on board, and some TOCs permit the full range on board.

On the boards at KGX you'll see "Tickets for sale on board" which means the full range, or something like "You must have a ticket before boarding" on FCC trains. EC are unadvertised either way because it would be confusing otherwise, but Anytimes are available on board.

SWT have a Penalty fare policy, but the guard will always sell full fare tickets on board trains - in fact some guards actually announce that they can sell tickets if anyone would like to come and see them "towards the middle of the train".

Even SWT RPIs seem to exercise discretion - certainly in the peaks when there are large queues at windows and machines passengers generally seem to get let off with a full fare and a lecture - unless of course they sit in 1st class with a standard class ticket.

A pragmatic approach, I feel, from a TOC that realises that they don't always make it easy to buy a ticket, particularly at busy periods.

 

[yorkie]

We employed a solicitor N Hammond from Tates in Leeds who had sucessfully defended a simialr case a few years ago
- excellent guy

Excellent, I know where to send people with similar queries from now on, thanks

The case went to magistrates court and due to an excellent defence my daughter was found not guilty and her costs have been settled by the central fund ie nothing for her to pay.
Hope this helps
If you want to know more just post further questions
Good luck
Duncan

That is brilliant news, well done! If you want the publicity, newspapers like stories like that. I believe that as you won, the taxpayer has to pay the cost, not Northern, which is quite outrageous and just adds to the potential media interest. But not everyone does want to go to the media, and that's very understandable.

You were quite right to fight the case, as a criminal record would, I am led to believe, stay on someone's record as far as an enhanced CRB check goes, for life. I believe that it goes off a standard check after a few years but many jobs require an enhanced check. In the current climate that effectively rules them out of working in many jobs.

It is a shame that the when TOCs act like this, they can't be charged the costs out of their profits, it would also be good if the people who acted incorrectly could be in the dock, it would encourage them to act correctly in future.

 

[John @ home]

*** posted in error ***

 

[Ferret]

It is a shame that the when TOCs act like this, they can't be charged the costs out of their profits, it would also be good if the people who acted incorrectly could be in the dock, it would encourage them to act correctly in future.

I find it outrageous that taxpayers have to pick up the tab from failed cases! Is anyone able to explain why the TOC don't have to pick up the tab?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I find it outrageous that taxpayers have to pick up the tab from failed cases! Is anyone able to explain why the TOC don't have to pick up the tab?

I imagine they DO have to - as is normal in criminal cases. I'd like to know where the evidence comes from that they don't?

 

[yorkie]

I imagine they DO have to - as is normal in criminal cases. I'd like to know where the evidence comes from that they don't?

http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2010/11/southern-railway-doesnt-pay-fo.html

Southern Railway, as it has confirmed to us, can *prosecute as many people as it likes, knowing it might not pay the defendant's costs when it loses.

OK, this isn't proof, but it is strong evidence.

I suspect it's something that has been retained from BR days.

It may also be a case of the DfT wishing to encourage TOCs to prosecute, by effectively saying they have nothing to lose.

If someone wanted to make a journey costing £100, I believe that the laws we have in this country are such that it would be better for them to steal about £800, buy the ticket and pocket the cash, than to undertake £100 worth of travel and refuse to purchase a valid ticket. If you steal £800 you only get a caution, no fine, apparently. In fact, you're better off stealing £800 than buying a £1.10 ticket for a £1.20 journey, with our laws.

 

[Ferret]

Not sure the Mirror alone is a source I'd place too much credence on! DaveNewcastle, are you able to offer some insight on this one?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

OK, this isn't proof, but it is strong evidence.

No it's not, it's hyperbole from a Mirror journalist.

The paragraph next down is important:

Southern Railway has contacted us to say that it would never bring a frivolous prosecution and, on the matter of costs, it is up to the court to decide if they should be paid and by whom. So, in retrospect, perhaps some of our ire (and that of Mr Jardine) should have been directed at the court

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If someone wanted to make a journey costing £100, I believe that the laws we have in this country are such that it would be better for them to steal about £800, buy the ticket and pocket the cash, than to undertake £100 worth of travel and refuse to purchase a valid ticket. If you steal £800 you only get a caution, no fine, apparently. In fact, you're better off stealing £800 than buying a £1.10 ticket for a £1.20 journey, with our laws.

I've made bold the most important word. Don't believe everything you're told.

 

[Flamingo]

The last fare evasion (Family railcard tickets, with no family railcard, and the "child" was late teens) I was involved in went to court, and the fine / costs came to £450 for what would have been an approx £80 fare if the railcard discount had not been applied. I had offered to excess the pair up as well, but they decided to hide in a loo instead.

It seemed pretty high to me, I will admit, when compared to some of the sentences handed down - especially when compared to the £90 fine the drunk who assaulted someone on my train got a few weeks ago.

 

[142094]

In what way did Northern's staff (or more likely Northern's hired hands from G4S) bully your daughter? Although I've never had dealings with them, I'd imagine that they'd just ask 'where did you travel from?', which should be quite a straightforward question!

Since G4S receive little in the way of training in the way of public relations, it doesn't really bother them how they come across.

 

[Ferret]

Since G4S receive little in the way of training in the way of public relations, it doesn't really bother them how they come across.

I think you may possibly need to delete the words 'in public relations' there sir! It strikes me they receive very little training of any sort, which is probably how they contrived to lose the case involving Duncan's daughter!

 

[RPI]

It does p**s me off that TOC's like Northern decide to use hired in staff to conduct RPI duties, it is a grey area aswell as being contractors they are only servants of the railway and not officers which makes a difference in cases under RRA 1889, i.e. a servant cannot detain a person under section 5(2) only an officer "s.5(2) If a passenger having failed to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare, refuses, or fails, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law", so a G4S member of staff cannot detain you if you fail to give a name and address. Although refusal to give a name and address is opening a can of worms.
Not being from that area so I dont know but do Northern have any of their own RPI's?

 

[Dolive22]

Do you catually use the power to detain? I had assumed that managers would have gpt scared of law suits years ago and banned you from doing that.

 

[island]

Can't speak for TOCs, but LU RPIs are told several times in training that they are categorically not to exercise the power to detain.

*Source: LU RPI training documentation, obtained through FOI by someone at random, and posted on www.whatdotheyknow.com