North West Electrification

[shinkansen1966]

We know that the DfT has confirmed electrification of the Manchester-Preston-Blackpool service.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8411923.stm

Do we know if London Euston - Preston - Blackpool through service will then be restored, as electric services ?

(apologies if that has already been discussed)

 

[robert2000]

No,

unless Virgin find new rolling stock, or northernrail or transpennine offer a new route to london.

currently what they want to do is, Manchester Airport-Manchester-bolton-preston-blackpool.

and liverpool-blackpool as electric services once the 3 lines are fully wired up.

Ormskirk to preston should be 3rd rail, to allow more journey options, plus to open the burscough curves. but 1 thing at a time.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Thanks for that. Yes, new Virgin rolling stock would have to be found to provide a through service from Euston to Blackpool.

For what I understand, once electrified, these routes will use cascadsed Thameslink stock. Thameslink 2000 will use new rolling stock.

 

[robert2000]

i dont think we need a direct route between london and blackpool.

there isnt a long wait at preston anyway if you have to change there.

plus smaller stations between preston and blackpool might have to lose a service , unless virgin call at kirkham, and poulton, etc

this would be funny. chester to blackpool south or north, 4 trains a day. it would bring back a lost service between the two.

 

[boing_uk]

Well to get any other service to BPS you would have to either curtail one of the Colne services or build a loop somewhere along the line, probably at Ansdell.

For the record, I do travel between Blackpool and Milton Keynes quite regularly, and the wait at Preston is only about 15 to 20 mins, which isnt a problem at all.

Although it would be nice if the Blackpool carriage sidings were wired up to allow stabling of Pendo's that otherwise sleep at Preston, allowing an early morning/late evening Virgin service but it would probably require some significant changes to station infrastructure along the route.

 

[robert2000]

it would be like the wrexham service, 1 train per day from london to blackpool north. that would be my only option, and would probably be a class 221, doubled until preston, other half going to glasgow

 

[tbtc]

There's a chance of services that currently start/ stop at Preston/ Lancaster serving Blackpool, but I doubt any regular daytime service would use it any time in the near future.

Blackpool isn't a massive place (compared to some places without a London service like Huddersfield/ Bolton/ Rotherham/ East Lancashire) and isn't really a big destination for Southeners anyway - it'd get more visitors if it had a direct link to places like Sheffield (which used to have a direct train, but doesn't).

Still, the way things are going, soon every village in the country will have a direct service to London..

 

[robert2000]

my best options for blackpool could be

1. blackpool - ormskirk
2. blackpool - chester
3. blackpool - crewe - shrewsbury, allowes for crewe-shrews every half hour with ATW providing every other train.
4. blackpool - birmingham or birmingham international, could be shrewsbury extension.
5. blackpool - glasgow - edinburgh


if you had to choose 1 of these, which would it be?

 

[350401]

The problem with Blackpool-Chester is that the only electrification to Chester is Merseyrail 3rd rail, so any service would have to be a diesel one and that would run under the wires for a significant part of the journey. Either that, or you'd need infill electrification to link Chester and Preston via Merseyrail and dual voltage units (I think the 319's have that capability?)

Shrewsbury - Blackpool via the WCML is a bit of a non-starter too - the Crewe-Wilmslow bit of the WCML is at capacity, with no available paths. Northern have already lost one train/hour between Wilmslow and Crewe and would be loathe to loose any more. Such a service via Wilmslow and the Airport to Manchester would impact on both the all-shacks local service on Wilmslow-Crewe and Airport to Manchester, unless the service called at all stations? To do that though, Crewe-Shrewsbury would need electrification. Though a 323/319 operated Shrewsbury to Blackpool service via Crewe, Wilmslow and Airport (and all stations in between!) would be cool to travel on

 

[43106]

I'm moderately sure that the sparking up of the Blackpool line was for the benefit of services to/from Liverpool and Manchester. The subject of the possibility of London - Blackpool services was touched on, but never followed up. Not all that long ago, there was a direct service between Euston & Blackpool North every 3 hours, so I see no reason (other than rolling stock issues) why this service should not be re-introduced. I'm sure that the reason why some services start/finish at Lancaster is that there isn't enough platform space at Preston to re-stock trains going back to London, as mentioned by "tbtc".

 

[robert2000]

there is rolling stock issues.

since dec 2008, voyagers were moved to use the holyhead route.

i dont know why ur complaining about diesel from blackpool to chester, because birmingham to edinburgh is diesel and 100% under the wires.

 

[350401]

I'm not complaining per se, but I do think that spending billions on electrification, only to run diesels under the newly erected wires is a bit daft. Yes it happens at the moment, but the trend is for running under the wires to be phased out - look at the IEP project - designing hybrid trains that are electric under wires and diesel out of wires.

London-Chesters and Holyheads, and Bham-Scotlands run with 221's mainly because Virgin lack suitable electric stock. If Virgin get a new 20yr franchise come 2012, I'd expect to see more Pendo's ordered to run Bham-Scotland with 390's, some 221's fitted with a 6th coach with a pantograph and transformer (to enable use of the knitting to Crewe), and some of the spare 221's sold/transferred to AXC or maybe EMT, both of which would snap up any such units. All this is speculation of course, but it would be common sense.

 

[driver9000]

Although it would be nice if the Blackpool carriage sidings were wired up to allow stabling of Pendo's that otherwise sleep at Preston, allowing an early morning/late evening Virgin service but it would probably require some significant changes to station infrastructure along the route.

Blackpool LMD is to be wired to enable the continued stabling and servicing of trains overnight. A problem with adding a 390 onto the sidings is a lack of capacity, the yard already being near capacity with only roads 8-14 being available for stabling. Infrastructure such as platforms wouldnt be too much of a problem as any VT service is unlikely to call at intermediate stops and Blackpool Nth is already capable of holding a 390. A path in the current sequence would be possible between the xx:45 and xx:20 departures. While I would welcome the return of Intercity services to the Fylde I cant them being in a hurry to do so the main reason is to improve and electrify the local services for Manchester and Liverpool

 

[merlodlliw]

this would be funny. chester to blackpool south or north, 4 trains a day. it would bring back a lost service between the two.[/QUOTE]

Not so funny Robert, First Nth Western ran Blackpool/Chester via Manchester/Northwich/Stockport and return. It was bought in loco hauled stock
I used this service often to Altrincham, it departed platform 3 at Chester around
3-30p.m on the return after running around,

Now the highly televised Northern, run Chester Southport.

 

[robert2000]

there used to be a northwich - blackpool service, 2 years ago. 1 tph i think

 

[323235]

Northern have already lost one train/hour between Wilmslow and Crewe and would be loathe to loose any more.

Northern haven't lost any hourly services on the Crewe line.
There's still 2tph to Crewe, one via Stock and one via Airport plus an hourly Alderley terminator.
The only reductions that have occurred is a minimal reduction in early morning and morning/evening peak services

 

[tbtc]

You could always do a Chester - Blackpool service by running direct via Warrington - would give more of Lancashire a link to North Wales too (handy for holidays etc)

 

[350401]

Northern haven't lost any hourly services on the Crewe line.
There's still 2tph to Crewe, one via Stock and one via Airport plus an hourly Alderley terminator.
The only reductions that have occurred is a minimal reduction in early morning and morning/evening peak services

In effect all stations south of Wilmslow have lost 1tph, as the northbound service via the Airport is timed to arrive at the same time as the northbound via stockport - both arrive at xx.44. Thus unless going to the Airport or Wilmslow, users of Holmes Chapel and Sandbach are down to 1 effective tph to Manchester. Before December 08, the services were half an hour apart, giving the stations a proper 2tph to Manchester. I'd hardly call it a minimal reduction in morning and evening peak services either, Chelford and Goostrey have lost 2 services to Manchester in morning peak (06.51 and 08.19 at Chelford) and 2 afternoon/evening peak services (15.33 and 17.33). Holmes Chapel and Sandbach have lost a morning peak service too, with it now starting from Alderley Edge. Evening peak, they have also lost out with the 17.25 Deansgate to Crewe Service being axed. Also, late services now start at Piccadilly, not Deansgate, which is not good for those having an evening out in Deangate locks or Oxford Rd area - its a good 15-20 minutes from Deansgate to Picc on foot. In short, the new timetable has been pretty lousy for those stations south of Alderley Edge.

 

[jonesy3001]

When do they start electrifying the routes and how long will it take??

 

[poshbakerloo]

They do need to sort out the whole Blackpool-Liverpool-Preston-Bolton-Southport area. So many stations to call at, slow services, old trains, very long journey times...not good!

 

[driver9000]

When do they start electrifying the routes and how long will it take??

all three should be done by 2016 according to the DfT but I'll believe it when I see the OLE train out doing its thing. The order they are supposed to be doing them in are:

Manchester-Euxton
Huyton-Springs Branch
Preston-Blackpool North

 

[KendalKing]

They do need to sort out the whole Blackpool-Liverpool-Preston-Bolton-Southport area. So many stations to call at, slow services, old trains, very long journey times...not good!

I could not agree more, the longer it takes, the more cars they be on the roads.

all three should be done by 2016 according to the DfT but I'll believe it when I see the OLE train out doing its thing. The order they are supposed to be doing them in are:

Manchester-Euxton
Huyton-Springs Branch
Preston-Blackpool North

The electrification of the Preston - Blackpool North was started in the 1980's. With the realignment of the track, and bridges modified to allow for overhead wires. But was never finished.

 

[boing_uk]

Which bridges were modified? As from as far as I can see, all the current bridges look as original, apart from one which has had its deck replaced sometime in the last ten years and of course the pedestrian footbridge at Kirkham which was replaced last year.

 

[bluenoxid]

Surely it would be better to do Blackpool before the connection to Liverpool via St Helens?

 

[boing_uk]

With my Blackpool commuters hat on, I'd tend to agree with you, however when I put my Engineering hat on, it doesnt make any sense. There are very few journeys that would benefit by Blackpool being wired up first; the vast majority would still be diesel powered, which would be pointless.

You wouldnt put the icing on before cooking the cake.

 

[KendalKing]

Which bridges were modified? As from as far as I can see, all the current bridges look as original, apart from one which has had its deck replaced sometime in the last ten years and of course the pedestrian footbridge at Kirkham which was replaced last year.

I can't remember the names of them now, but they were between Preston and Salwick. The bridges on the rest of the route were OK.

If I remember correctly the work on the electrification was only stop due to a short fall in funding. This was in the 1980's, nearly 30-years ago now!

 

[driver9000]

there are no bridges altered to accomodate OLE between Preston and Salwick the only bridges already high enough are Blackpool Rd, Salwick station and Kirkham station. The bridges between Lea Road and Salwick are to original tight roof fit design. I dont know if any work was started on the Fylde lines for OLE but Kirkham-Poulton has a couple of newer bridges that would be fit for OLE also the signalling is spaced for track circuit block and the signals are three aspect heads with the unused aspect plated over. There are bridges between Singleton and Blackpool North that are also too low to take the OLE, the one at the Poluton end of Singleton bank and between Layton and Carleton crossing springing immediately to mind.

 

[robert2000]

warrington - chester needs electrifying

 

[Aictos]

Well, I'm looking forward to see the wires up at Blackpool and seeing the current Lancaster/Preston terminators use Blackpool instead,
But while we're on the matter of electrification, when will the DfT get the Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln and Peterborough to Ipswich/Bury St Edmunds routes electrified as they offer ideal diversionary route options.

 

[Kneedown]

when will the DfT get the Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln and Peterborough to Ipswich/Bury St Edmunds routes electrified as they offer ideal diversionary route options.

With one dogbox per hour in either direction on the joint line, and nothing north of Spalding after about 17.00(ish) i hardly think it would be cost effective, especially when you consider it would be used as a diversion probably once in blue moon.
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warrington - chester needs electrifying

So do many other routes in the country.