North West electrification query

[BR 1979]

I think we are getting carried away with what is possible on the current infrastructure.
Chorley has little chance of even 4 tracks through the Station area.
Historically Chorley only had 4 tracks from the North side of the crossing over the Yarrow Valley
into the sidings and Goods Shed at Railway Street.
It has only ever had 2 through running lines so in my opinion the network through Chorley from the proposed
Buckshaw Village Station through to Lostock Jct will never change.

Electrifying Oxenholme to Windermere would be pointless .
Investment would be better spent extending the Platform at Oxenholme and in Rolling Stock
for a dedicated Shuttle Service .
Through trains rely on the service coming from somewhere else, surely better to have a dedicated service ?
Capacity could not be increased without re-signalling the branch as it is currently 'one train in steam' as we
referred to the working or was the last time I was working there.

Blackpool obviously makes sense but a word of caution.
This has been mooted many times before, indeed I was involved in the campaign to electrify
Manchester to Blackpool back in the 80's and I am still waiting 30 years on !
Personally I see nothing being done in this Government's term other than it 'looking good'
and lots of money being spent with consultants (its happened lots in the past)

What is needed is local lines being re-instated
Chorley - Wigan
Chorley - Cherry Tree
Poulton - Fleetwood
Preston - Liverpool ( Through Line)

High speed electrified lines don't serve local commuters, Chorley would not be a stop.
Increasing through trains on this line would probably be at the detriment to 'local' services.

We need nationalisation and a thorough overhaul of priorities,
As an example of ineptitude we have the biggest single residential development in Europe
just down the road from Chorley at Buckshaw Village which is about 1km from Euxton Jct
Houses have been there for 4 - 5 years and are still being built with over 2000 to be built eventually.
It also has quite an amount of business. Work has not even started on the Station.
Surely the Station should of been a priority to get people used to using the train
If Network Rail cannot even build a through station on an existing line with a ready made
commuter base I see little chance of the other 'improvements' ever taking shape.

Ho...Hi by the way...first post so be gentle...

Paul

 

[WatcherZero]

The former Chorley-Wigan route is the WCML nowadays aint it? I dont forsee the reinstatement of that local service until HS2 opens at the very least, unless you added even more congestion to the Bolton-Preston line by having them reverse at Bolton.

Its also hard to build stations before the housing developments they would serve are built, what if its built and the development is cancelled leaving a ghost station? The first couple of years the area slowly populates as houses are sold, they dont all move in on day one with every house completed.

 

[BR 1979]

The former Chorley-Wigan route is the WCML nowadays aint it? I dont forsee the reinstatement of that local service until HS2 opens at the very least, unless you added even more congestion to the Bolton-Preston line by having them reverse at Bolton.

Its also hard to build stations before the housing developments they would serve are built, what if its built and the development is cancelled leaving a ghost station? The first couple of years the area slowly populates as houses are sold, they dont all move in on day one with every house completed.

Most of the Chorley - Wigan Route is still walk-able it is just North of Adlington through to the old Boars Head Jct on the WCML and is about 5 - 6km long. It can be easily followed on Google Maps

As regards the Development we are not talking a few houses ! it takes up the whole of the former Euxton R.O.F. site and as I said the largest single development in Europe
Although building slowed down throughout 08-09 it is now racing towards completion with no sign of the Station.

Paul

 

[bluenoxid]

Alreet Lancastrian, so we meet again!!

The bit missing off the current electrification that I would like to see first is extend the wires to Rochdale and Stalybridge. They both need train lengthening (especially in the peaks) and its work towards TPE / Calder Valley wiring. They ould terminate one of the Calder Valley DMU services in the bay at Rochdale if needed to free up a path for anoth DMU. It would also free some space on the through platforms at Vic too.

I would refute the idea of Rochdale being electrified. It is very unlikely that the Calder Valley will be electrified over the next 20 years, so this piecemeal land grab will be a waste of time. If anything, I would be supporting the electrification of the route with 750V DC.

Stalybridge on the other hand is a brilliant idea and a complete remodelling of the platforms would allow for two terminating platforms and 2-3 through platforms for TPE and Northern services. It would allow for the creation of an East Manchester interchange, with North West services able to access Yorkshire, the North East and Manchester Airport at a reasonably quiet station purpose built for this kind of thing.

 

[tbtc]

I would refute the idea of Rochdale being electrified. It is very unlikely that the Calder Valley will be electrified over the next 20 years, so this piecemeal land grab will be a waste of time. If anything, I would be supporting the electrification of the route with 750V DC.

Stalybridge on the other hand is a brilliant idea and a complete remodelling of the platforms would allow for two terminating platforms and 2-3 through platforms for TPE and Northern services. It would allow for the creation of an East Manchester interchange, with North West services able to access Yorkshire, the North East and Manchester Airport at a reasonably quiet station purpose built for this kind of thing.

Agreed.

There are a lot of lines to electrify, so the priority needs to be given to ones which "replace" the most DMUs, rather than line like Hazel Grove - Stockport which few EMUs ever run on. Manchester - Rochdale would be a waste, as most trains on that line continue to West Yorkshire (so would remain as DMU). Better to concentrate on "self contained" routes.

 

[lancastrian]

Alreet Lancastrian, so we meet again!!

The bit missing off the current electrification that I would like to see first is extend the wires to Rochdale and Stalybridge. They both need train lengthening (especially in the peaks) and its work towards TPE / Calder Valley wiring. They ould terminate one of the Calder Valley DMU services in the bay at Rochdale if needed to free up a path for anoth DMU. It would also free some space on the through platforms at Vic too.

I agree Anvil1984. If you look back to my post from 26/11; post no. 11. In my point number 3, I suggested that the wires be extended from both Manchester Victoria & Guide BRidge to Stalybridge. Your suggestion that they also be extended through to Rochdale is excellent, I just wish it had occured to me.

Yeah, but IMO from Wigan Wallgate to Southport should be 3rd Rail, then if they build that curve between the Wigan - Southport and Liverpool - Preston line, through services can run as leccy. The cost of the line that length doesn't currently justify 1tph out of two that could be elecrtic, 1tph Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Bolton - Piccadilly - Airport and 1tph Southport - Wigan Wallgate - Atherton - Walkden - Salford - Victoria.

I am sorry but I disagree with this idea, Yes third rail to be extended from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, terminating in the bay platform there, but if Wigan to Southport is to be electrified, it needs to be overhead, so if the Preston to Burscough Bridge was also wired, via the north Burscough curve, then a good through service between Preston & Southport can be developed.

What is really needed to a complete electrification of all of the North West Rail system.

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge, via the south Burscough curve, Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate and Bidston to Wrexham Central should all be thrid rail, as extensions to the MerseyRail system. All the rest of the lines need to be Overhead wires.

 

[Anvil1984]

Agreed.

There are a lot of lines to electrify, so the priority needs to be given to ones which "replace" the most DMUs, rather than line like Hazel Grove - Stockport which few EMUs ever run on. Manchester - Rochdale would be a waste, as most trains on that line continue to West Yorkshire (so would remain as DMU). Better to concentrate on "self contained" routes.

750dc Third Rail Bluenoxid?

Whilst the majority of services do go into West Yorkshire, I can see this line getting busier with extra traffic both local just to Rochdale / Littleborugh or further accros the Pennines. There are quite a few Rochdale terminators which go to and from Wigan and the line has enough passengers to justify another local. I couldnt supporet the line going to light rail the way the Oldham Loop has as there are too many heavy rail serivces on the line with more wanting to take the space (GNER Pennine route for one)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am sorry but I disagree with this idea, Yes third rail to be extended from Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate, terminating in the bay platform there, but if Wigan to Southport is to be electrified, it needs to be overhead, so if the Preston to Burscough Bridge was also wired, via the north Burscough curve, then a good through service between Preston & Southport can be developed.

What is really needed to a complete electrification of all of the North West Rail system.

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge, via the south Burscough curve, Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate and Bidston to Wrexham Central should all be thrid rail, as extensions to the MerseyRail system. All the rest of the lines need to be Overhead wires.

Agreed it wont be too much of an issue fleet wise either, Merseyrail are going to need new stock soon anyway so they can throw in a few dual voltage trains as well for Preston - Ormskirk . Also HSE may have something to say as I believe you are only allowed to extend 3rd rail but not build whole new lines of it. You could argue that Ormskirk and Kirkby are extensions as they share the same platforms at those stations but Southport I believe is segragated so may cause an issue

 

[bluenoxid]

750dc Third Rail Bluenoxid?

Fraid not. This is more likely the shot that you would get at Rochdale on a service to Manchester Victoria before 25kV. Any additional trains are likely to be extended to Burnley/Blackburn via a reinstated Todmorden curve.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/No_3001_Manchester_Metrolink_tram.jpg

Whilst the majority of services do go into West Yorkshire, I can see this line getting busier with extra traffic both local just to Rochdale / Littleborugh or further accros the Pennines. There are quite a few Rochdale terminators which go to and from Wigan and the line has enough passengers to justify another local. I couldnt supporet the line going to light rail the way the Oldham Loop has as there are too many heavy rail serivces on the line with more wanting to take the space (GNER Pennine route for one)

However a reasonable frequency tram train is not exactly off the agenda. Tyne and Wear Metro services mix with Intercity and Regional Railways services.

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge is easy to justify. The others are much more difficult and I think it will be interesting to see whether both routes would be better delivered with OHLE. Kirkby and Wrexham are both only one per hour.

Personally I believe that electrification to Morecambe, Marple/Rose Hill routes and extension to Stalybridge are the most important projects to see taken forward. The infrastructure projects that I would like to see are Todmorden Curve, Burscough Bridge extension, Halton Curve and some aspects of the Northern Hub.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I disagree that electrifiying windemere is pointless they believe no extra supply is needed is this line was converted in which case its a simple job that free's up DMU's

I dont know anything about barow? what kind of service does ti have?

 

[bluenoxid]

I disagree that electrifiying windemere is pointless they believe no extra supply is needed is this line was converted in which case its a simple job that free's up DMU's

I dont know anything about barow? what kind of service does ti have?

Pretty poor. Around hourly for local and MIA services. Considering the distance, bridges to be crossed and links lost as electrification cannot be justified in your wildest dreams to Carlisle. Barrow needs to fight to keep its existing service at the moment, not demand electrification investment it is not going to receive.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Pretty poor. Around hourly for local and MIA services. Considering the distance, bridges to be crossed and links lost as electrification cannot be justified in your wildest dreams to Carlisle. Barrow needs to fight to keep its existing service at the moment, not demand electrification investment it is not going to receive.

okay thank you, why was i under impression it had a better service must of made that up


so barrow portions ever join up at preston?

 

[tbtc]

barrow portions ever join up at preston?

Sometimes.

It's normally bi-hourly Manchester Airport - Barrow and bi-hourly Manchester Airport - Scotland. However there are a few Scottish "extras" which join/leave regular Barrow services (they do this at Preston, not Lancaster, which is easier to split/join at, despite the two 185s then following each other between Preston and Lancaster).

The trouble for Barrow is that if Lancaster - Manchester Airport is wired (when the gap from Preston to Manchester Oxford Road is filled in), will it retain a direct DMU? Its a long way for DMU operation under wires, hence my speculation in the past that Northern may take over the Barrow TPE service as far as Lancaster (for much of the day).

The same issue is with Windermere. Electrify a line with an hourly service, or keep it as a self-contained DMU shuttle for most journeys?

To take another example, see the way that Sunderland/ Middlesbrough/ Hull lost all/most of their direct London trains when the ECML was electrified - electric trains concentrated on the "main line".

 

[lancastrian]

The same issue is with Windermere. Electrify a line with an hourly service, or keep it as a self-contained DMU shuttle for most journeys?

Well the arguement that it is better to electrify self contained routes like the Windermere Branch are quite well accepted in the London area, in fact by electrifing such lines you can restore through journies from those lines to major job centres. This will enable people to travel from the South Lakeland area to Lancaster, Preston or the Great Manchester area for work much easier. That sort of travel distance is done regularly into London from as far a field as over 120 miles.

 

[tbtc]

Well the arguement that it is better to electrify self contained routes like the Windermere Branch are quite well accepted in the London area, in fact by electrifing such lines you can restore through journies from those lines to major job centres. This will enable people to travel from the South Lakeland area to Lancaster, Preston or the Great Manchester area for work much easier. That sort of travel distance is done regularly into London from as far a field as over 120 miles.

I agree with that, I'd rather we concentrated on "infills" like GOBLIN, Marshlink, Coventry - Nuneaton, Walsall - Rugeley, Crewe - Chester, Bolton - Kirkby (once the Lancashire scheme is done), Shotts line etc than started on the GWML/ MML etc.

Much better operationally to have everything in an area dine than leave diesel "islands".

However, knowing how politicians do things on the cheap, I don't expect Windermere will be done. Would be good (especially with tourists from Manchester/ Liverpool coming to the Lakes too), but I'm not hopeful

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree with that, I'd rather we concentrated on "infills" like GOBLIN, Marshlink, Coventry - Nuneaton, Walsall - Rugeley, Crewe - Chester, Bolton - Kirkby (once the Lancashire scheme is done), Shotts line etc than started on the GWML/ MML etc.

Much better operationally to have everything in an area dine than leave diesel "islands".

However, knowing how politicians do things on the cheap, I don't expect Windermere will be done. Would be good (especially with tourists from Manchester/ Liverpool coming to the Lakes too), but I'm not hopeful

i have a feeling it will get done because it doesnt need a supply.... i think im over optimistic about it.... but i really think it will

 

[lancastrian]

i have a feeling it will get done because it doesnt need a supply.... i think im over optimistic about it.... but i really think it will

I really hope so, because it is self contained, it doesn't mean that the DMU don't have to travel for some distance under the wires to be serviced. I think all Northern DMU as serviced at newton Heath, so thay have to travel over 100 miles round trip. Hardly a 'sefl contained' line.

 

[cle]

Maybe if pathing isn't great, Windemere/Barrow trains in certain hours could run to Preston at least, from where connections are good to everywhere. Or DMUs could run to Colne or something, and turn around. Quite compact.

 

[Anvil1984]

Fraid not. This is more likely the shot that you would get at Rochdale on a service to Manchester Victoria before 25kV. Any additional trains are likely to be extended to Burnley/Blackburn via a reinstated Todmorden curve.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/No_3001_Manchester_Metrolink_tram.jpg



However a reasonable frequency tram train is not exactly off the agenda. Tyne and Wear Metro services mix with Intercity and Regional Railways services.

Ormskirk to Burscough Bridge is easy to justify. The others are much more difficult and I think it will be interesting to see whether both routes would be better delivered with OHLE. Kirkby and Wrexham are both only one per hour.

Personally I believe that electrification to Morecambe, Marple/Rose Hill routes and extension to Stalybridge are the most important projects to see taken forward. The infrastructure projects that I would like to see are Todmorden Curve, Burscough Bridge extension, Halton Curve and some aspects of the Northern Hub.

Huh The Tyne and Wear Merto doesn't mingle with as many heavy rail services, it goes with 1 regional service an hour in each direction and a very limited Grand Central which follows it into the station and then crawls behind it if its going ECS to turn around not exactly mingling. No point electrifying Rochdale with anything other than AC as it will be needed as a TPE diversion as and when the main TPE core route is done otherwise its going to lead to a lot more bus replacements in the future.

 

[bluenoxid]

Huh The Tyne and Wear Merto doesn't mingle with as many heavy rail services, it goes with 1 regional service an hour in each direction and a very limited Grand Central which follows it into the station and then crawls behind it if its going ECS to turn around not exactly mingling. No point electrifying Rochdale with anything other than AC as it will be needed as a TPE diversion as and when the main TPE core route is done otherwise its going to lead to a lot more bus replacements in the future.

And when do you see Diggle and the Calder electrified. Diggle is off the agenda until 2020/25 at the earliest with other routes taking precedence over that. GW Sub, GWML, NW Triangle, MML and XC North (Brum - Derby) and South (Coventry - Oxford, Reading - Basingstoke) are likely to take precedence over Diggle with the 185 fleet likely to be on the route for many years.

750 volts DC overhead is likely to be more useful to the users of Manchester than a limb for an hourly or half hourly if we are lucky.

 

[Anvil1984]

But we've never interworked a heavy rail with a metro service, actually no Tyne and Wear tried with 2 services per hour and a full compliment of metro services and guess what happened shortly after, one of the heavy rail services per hour got kicked off the line as Metro couldn't keep to timings. There is no point putting a light rail service up there, it should be heavy rail or kept as DMU. It should be electrified just as much as Stalybridge but Stalybridge isnt likely to be done either. It is only a 10 mile (if that) extension of the wires to facilitate through services to keep Victoria clear barely a complex or expensive task. It would not be a hpurly or half hourly limb Rochdale to Manchester would remain at 4tph but go to 2 EMU, 2 DMU which would be the same service level at least as any Stalybridge - Manchester Vic service

 

[Nym]

Am surprised no-one else is mentioning electrifying through Victoria to Ashbrys. Where it wouldn't be difficult to add two more platforms on the freight line to vic and open this up to passenger usage, for both pushing services through vic, it would keep them on the correct side of the lines, rather than running to stalybridge from chat moss. This would also provide diversion opportunities away from Piccadilly for the 'East Manchester' lines, should there be problems, track work, or work for putting in HS2 platforms on the NE of Picc...

4Track to guide bridge anyone?

 

[tbtc]

4Track to guide bridge anyone?

Needs doing, if TPE are going to keep running to Piccadilly.

There's not enough capacity there, so long distance TPE services get stuck behind "stoppers" far too often

 

[sprinterguy]

4Track to guide bridge anyone?

You'd hope, if north Transpennine is ever electrified, that this would be included in the scheme: Even with a lot of TPE services moving to Victoria after electrification, it would still be useful to have a couple of fast lines to Ardwick to keep the stoppers out of the way of trains from Huddersfield and beyond.

 

[cle]

Even a reasonable linespeed from Manchester to Guide Bridge would knock 5 mins off the journey, it's embarrassing.

 

[YorkshireBear]

sorry dont know guide bridge well, is there room for 4 tracks there?

 

[sprinterguy]

sorry dont know guide bridge well, is there room for 4 tracks there?

Yes, it used to be the Manchester end of the Woodhead route, so had heavy freight and passenger traffic and was four tracked in the past. There still is a section of four tracking between Gorton and Ashburys, and the four track trackbed width is still clearly visible from Guide Bridge to Ardwick where it's two track.

 

[tbtc]

Even a reasonable linespeed from Manchester to Guide Bridge would knock 5 mins off the journey, it's embarrassing.

Yup - its a real waste of time on a long-distance service.

It ought to be done regardless of other electrification/ improvements in Manchester area - otherwise the only way round it is to send all TPE to Victoria

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yes, it used to be the Manchester end of the Woodhead route, so had heavy freight and passenger traffic and was four tracked in the past. There still is a section of four tracking between Gorton and Ashburys, and the four track trackbed width is still clearly visible from Guide Bridge to Ardwick where it's two track.

ah cheers, i really need to get out onto network more often....

sounds like it wouldnt be too hard or expensive to do, have manchester pte ever mentioned it?

 

[Nym]

Yes, it has been mentioned previously by NR and SELNEC IIRC, Still, I'd say opening a passenger route into Victoria from there could be a good idea, aswell as electrifying and upgrading the route from Stockport to Victoria via Guide Bridge (there is one without a reversal), that would better justify the electrification to Stalybridge. Now that would come in helpful if theres any major trackworks at piccadilly (such as building a flyover and re-opening Mayfeild for TPE services) That could see some services terminating at stockport, some running to piccadilly on one of the open lines, and the rest into victoria via Guide Bridge.

Not a priority for regular passenger services, but would be a priority for diversionary routes, and a possible hourly Stockport - Stalybridge or if some more infill was done by laying some new track allong the alignment of where the A555 was ment to go, Heald Green Jcns. to Cheadle Hume Jcns. Could see the foundations layed for an Airport - Cheadle Hume - Stockport - Denton - Guide Bridge - Stalybridge / Victoria service. or a 3rd pair of tracks to piccadilly, long way round, but a route nevertheless, and wires would be helpful.

 

[Anvil1984]

I think the idea of electrifying to Stalybridge (and my poo pooed idea of Rochdale) is strong enough as it frees up space in Manchester Victoria. There currently are no westbound bays even though some are planned, there still won't be as many as say Leeds and Manchester Piccadilly and it makes sense especially on what can very busy lines at times to run some services crsoo-city