North Wales Questions

[jones_bangor]

I have a timetable from the early 60s showing that Pwllheli had three direct services to London on Saturday mornings by different routes - one via Afonwen, Caernarfon and Crewe, one via Barmouth, Dolgellau and Ruabon and another via Machynlleth. There was also a direct train to Cardiff via Aberystwyth and Carmarthen. Such a difference to today's sad service.

I think if WG want to be taken seriously on intra-Wales transport, then reopening Carmarthen - Lampeter - Aberystwyth has to be top on the agenda. This line, if built to 90mph, would be a big boost.

I still remain somewhat perplexed why Beeching & co closed Caernarfon - Afonwen yet retained the Cambrian. OK, maybe it was based on profitability, but retention of that Caernarfon - Pwllheli and Ruabon - Barmouth would have been better for connectivity. But I guess as usual for the London centrics, Wales was an after thought for them, and second rate MPs only interested in party careers.

 

[Squaddie]

I think if WG want to be taken seriously on intra-Wales transport, then reopening Carmarthen - Lampeter - Aberystwyth has to be top on the agenda. This line, if built to 90mph, would be a big boost.

I still remain somewhat perplexed why Beeching & co closed Caernarfon - Afonwen yet retained the Cambrian. OK, maybe it was based on profitability, but retention of that Caernarfon - Pwllheli and Ruabon - Barmouth would have been better for connectivity. But I guess as usual for the London centrics, Wales was an after thought for them, and second rate MPs only interested in party careers.

Despite it being a key route, I don't think there is a realistic chance of the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line ever being reopened, as it would require extensive realignment and rebuilding and would cost a fortune.

The Cambrian probably survived the Beeching axe only because it ran through a number of marginal constituencies and the politicians feared the electoral fallout. The Caernarfon branch survived the Beeching cuts and was closed only in 1970.

 

[swcovas]

I think if WG want to be taken seriously on intra-Wales transport, then reopening Carmarthen - Lampeter - Aberystwyth has to be top on the agenda. This line, if built to 90mph, would be a big boost.

I still remain somewhat perplexed why Beeching & co closed Caernarfon - Afonwen yet retained the Cambrian. OK, maybe it was based on profitability, but retention of that Caernarfon - Pwllheli and Ruabon - Barmouth would have been better for connectivity. But I guess as usual for the London centrics, Wales was an after thought for them, and second rate MPs only interested in party careers.

Bangor to Afon Wen was actually quite well used compared to other closures at the time with around 5,000 pass/week in winter and 12,000 /week in summer. There were through trains to Euston until 1964 on summer saturdays. Considerable numbers travelled to Butlins at Penychain......about 22% of "campers" arrived by train, the majority via the Bangor line. It was estimated that it would require 30 double decker buses to ship passengers from Bangor (Caernarfon was to have closed under the Beeching Plan) to Penychain though in reality these were never needed as people switched to car. Apparently some consideration was given to closure of the Pwllheli to Afon Wen section and running trains from Bangor to Mach/Aber or, as another scenario, closure between Barmouth and Afon Wen and running a service between Pwllheli and Bangor with reversal at Afon Wen, which is perhaps a more natural traffic flow from the Lleyn peninsular. Interesting thoughts on what might have been.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think if WG want to be taken seriously on intra-Wales transport, then reopening Carmarthen - Lampeter - Aberystwyth has to be top on the agenda. This line, if built to 90mph, would be a big boost.

Agreed, that line would be very useful (but only if it is significantly faster than the orriginal). There's a very straight section north from Lampeter, up to somewhere near the Strata Florida abbey (not sure where the Strata Florida station was in relation to that though). Aside from one intermediate station (Tregaron) that bit could probablly be 90mph, but the rest would be slower (though with one major new tunnel most could be 60mph I'd guess, with 2 minutes added for each station stop and otherwise assuming running at linespeed the whole time I think it could be done in around 1hr 15min).

 

[swcovas]

Agreed, that line would be very useful (but only if it is significantly faster than the orriginal). There's a very straight section north from Lampeter, up to somewhere near the Strata Florida abbey (not sure where the Strata Florida station was in relation to that though). Aside from one intermediate station (Tregaron) that bit could probablly be 90mph, but the rest would be slower (though with one major new tunnel most could be 60mph I'd guess, with 2 minutes added for each station stop and otherwise assuming running at linespeed the whole time I think it could be done in around 1hr 15min).

Which would give 2 hours to Swansea and five hours to London......comparable with the route via Brum with the advantage of providing a link between Aberystwyth and Wales's three largest cities. Wonderful thought!!! WIll it happen? Doubtful, I think!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Which would give 2 hours to Swansea and five hours to London......comparable with the route via Brum with the advantage of providing a link between Aberystwyth and Wales's three largest cities. Wonderful thought!!! WIll it happen? Doubtful, I think!

And 2hr 37mins to Cardiff (1hr 22mins Carmarthen - Cardiff via Swansea District Line).

 

[tbtc]

As from May tt change

1309 BHM INTL to Holyhead will be 6 carriages to Shrewsbury and 4 as far as Llandudno Jnc.
1509 BHM INTL to Holyhead will have 2 extra carriages added between Chester and Llandudno Jnc.
1730 Holyhead to Shrewsbury will have 2 extra carriages from Llandudno Jnc to Shrewsbury.
1523 & 1638 departures from Holyhead re timed to 1544 and 1650.
1544 Holyhead to BHM INTL will run non stop between Llandudno Jnc and Chester - for boat traffic.
1635 Llandudno Jnc - Chester extra service.

Cambrian-

0809 BHM INTL - Aberystwyth 4 car all week to Machynlleth.
0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL 4 car from Aberystwyth joined by 2 off coast at Machynlleth going forward as 6 car.

Good to see more service improvements from the "no growth" Wales & Borders franchise - as well as the ones in the south discussed on another thread.

Maybe Arriva aren't the bad guys that some make them out to be?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Good to see more service improvements from the "no growth" Wales & Borders franchise - as well as the ones in the south discussed on another thread.

Maybe Arriva aren't the bad guys that some make them out to be?

Cambrian strengthening is for summer only though the N Wales coast changes are through to December.
Welsh Government acquired 6 Class 150's off ScotRail in 2007 and then ATW quietly sub leased them to FGW to get them out the mess caused by the new franchise in 2008. There now back in Wales and Borders so the benefits that could have been had 5 years ago are only now just showing through. That's not ATW dipping in own pockets but taxpayer. ATW will do wonders - if someone else pays...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I still remain somewhat perplexed why Beeching & co closed Caernarfon - Afonwen yet retained the Cambrian. OK, maybe it was based on profitability, but retention of that Caernarfon - Pwllheli and Ruabon - Barmouth would have been better for connectivity. But I guess as usual for the London centrics, Wales was an after thought for them, and second rate MPs only interested in party careers.[/QUOTE]

The traffic surveys conducted in March 62 were the main basis for the decisions. The report assumed that the weekly total in March was the average for the year and has drawn much criticism due to the obvious weakness in the methodology.
Lines were split into 3 category's above 10000 passengers per week, 5-10 and below 5. Stations were also split into 3 category's based on revenue. Generally a line needed to above 10000 to survive and stations in the second category or above.

The Carmarthen line to Aberystwyth was beneath 5.
The line from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury was mainly 5-10 with some above 10 stretches.
The Machynlleth to Pwllheli line was above 10 between Tywyn and Harlech and 5 to 10 elsewhere.
The Afon Wen - Bangor section and Ruabon- Barmouth were both mainly less than 5 with some 5-10 streches.
Perversely even though it wasn't open that week the Vale of Rheidol was in the 5-10 category!
Aberyswtyth was in the top category of revenue generation.

Hence the decision that was made.

 

[tbtc]

Cambrian strengthening is for summer only

Any idea what Wales & Borders plan to do with the units during the winter?

 

[SprinterMan]

As from May tt change

1309 BHM INTL to Holyhead will be 6 carriages to Shrewsbury and 4 as far as Llandudno Jnc.
1509 BHM INTL to Holyhead will have 2 extra carriages added between Chester and Llandudno Jnc.
1730 Holyhead to Shrewsbury will have 2 extra carriages from Llandudno Jnc to Shrewsbury.
1523 & 1638 departures from Holyhead re timed to 1544 and 1650.
1544 Holyhead to BHM INTL will run non stop between Llandudno Jnc and Chester - for boat traffic.
1635 Llandudno Jnc - Chester extra service.

Cambrian-

0809 BHM INTL - Aberystwyth 4 car all week to Machynlleth.
0930 Aberystwyth to BHM INTL 4 car from Aberystwyth joined by 2 off coast at Machynlleth going forward as 6 car.

Where can this be found online?
Will the 1544 still do the request stops before LLJ?

 

[jones_bangor]

Which would give 2 hours to Swansea and five hours to London......comparable with the route via Brum with the advantage of providing a link between Aberystwyth and Wales's three largest cities. Wonderful thought!!! WIll it happen? Doubtful, I think!

I think any re-opening of Carmarthen - Aberystwyth would use connectivity with Swansea and Cardiff as the main driver, and would need Welsh Government to push it (I'm sure it is a WG "aspiration").

 

[Gareth Marston]

Where can this be found online?
Will the 1544 still do the request stops before LLJ?

In letter from ATW Stakeholder Manager. It was listed as changes just that its been retimed later from HHD and will run fast from Llandudno Jnc to Chester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any idea what Wales & Borders plan to do with the units during the winter?

The unit off the 0810 Mach to Aberystwyth runs ECS to Machynlleth (c0945) at moment and then forms the 1100 Mach to Pwhelli. It looks like this will join up with unit off 0624 New St to Aber to form the 4 car 0930 Aber to BHM INTL, this in turn becomes the 1309 INTL to HHD which is strengthened as far as Llandudno Jnc.
The strengthened 0809 INTL will no doubt split at Machynlleth to form the 1100 up the coast.

The N Wales coast changes are the whole tt period including 1309 ex BHM INTL being 6 car so it looks like the units will kick around Shrewsbury after September.

 

[tbtc]

The unit off the 0810 Mach to Aberystwyth runs ECS to Machynlleth (c0945) at moment and then forms the 1100 Mach to Pwhelli. It looks like this will join up with unit off 0624 New St to Aber to form the 4 car 0930 Aber to BHM INTL, this in turn becomes the 1309 INTL to HHD which is strengthened as far as Llandudno Jnc.
The strengthened 0809 INTL will no doubt split at Machynlleth to form the 1100 up the coast.

The N Wales coast changes are the whole tt period including 1309 ex BHM INTL being 6 car so it looks like the units will kick around Shrewsbury after September.

Cheers Gareth

 

[SIGGY56]

Hello, I live in Bangor and was wondering some things about the railways around here.

New Curve At Shotton?
I heard a while ago of a plan to build a curve at Shotton between the Borderlands line and the North Wales Coast line. Has this been built, is it going to be built and in what directions will it join the other lines?


No and it never will!

This is something that was first proposed in the late 1960's. I do have a copy of the plan for the proposals - but it never took place!