North TPE May 2014 proposed timetable

[Waverley125]

But there are already moves afoot to wire both Hull via Selby & Temple Hirst, and Middlesbrough. Not only for TPE, but for the post-HS2 ECML, where they will then be able to utilise the existing 225s instead of needing new stock.

 

[YorkshireBear]

But there are already moves afoot to wire both Hull via Selby & Temple Hirst, and Middlesbrough. Not only for TPE, but for the post-HS2 ECML, where they will then be able to utilise the existing 225s instead of needing new stock.

I havent heard of these moves afoot, apart from aspirations in the RUS is it stated anywhere?

 

[tbtc]

But there are already moves afoot to wire both Hull via Selby & Temple Hirst, and Middlesbrough. Not only for TPE, but for the post-HS2 ECML, where they will then be able to utilise the existing 225s instead of needing new stock.

I havent heard of these moves afoot, apart from aspirations in the RUS is it stated anywhere?

Aye, what plans?

I've seen plenty of suggestions, but then again I've seen most things suggested in recent years

 

[Waverley125]

IIRC Feasibility studies were being undertaken as necessary addendums to the existing TPE wiring.

 

[ainsworth74]

IIRC Feasibility studies were being undertaken as necessary addendums to the existing TPE wiring.

And so far that's all they are, most people on here think that Hull will likely get the wires at the same time as Manchester - York wiring but people aren't so sure about Middlesbrough about getting wires. Certainly it's a bit strong to suggest moves are afoot to wire them up.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My thinking of Middlesbrough going to XC is that it would allow more Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle EMUs to run (by diverting some Voyagers to Teesside instead).

I find myself once again in agreement with your reasoning on this matter. (I must be going "nice" in my old age).

 

[tbtc]

I find myself once again in agreement with your reasoning on this matter. (I must be going "nice" in my old age).

I must be softening

 

[IanXC]

And so far that's all they are, most people on here think that Hull will likely get the wires at the same time as Manchester - York wiring but people aren't so sure about Middlesbrough about getting wires. Certainly it's a bit strong to suggest moves are afoot to wire them up.

This is what I think will happen too. I think wiring Hull, XC to Middlesbrough (with capacity increase of 4/5 car Voyagers) and Blackpool North to York extended to Scarborough (continuing to use 185s, plus an hourly shuttle to York) gives all of the destinations a good improvement in their service and makes sensible use of the assets.

The other thing to remember about the wiring to Hull is that there are very, very few overbridges on the route keeping the costs down, although there is of course Selby Swing Bridge.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is what I think will happen too. I think wiring Hull, XC to Middlesbrough (with capacity increase of 4/5 car Voyagers) and Blackpool North to York extended to Scarborough (continuing to use 185s, plus an hourly shuttle to York) gives all of the destinations a good improvement in their service and makes sensible use of the assets.

If that's what happens I certainly won't be moaning. As much as I'd like to see wires to Middlesbrough without wiring up other parts (basically Darlo - Saltburn) it's never really going to work as it's just 1tph and unless you go into the freight yards there isn't going to be much else being added to that figure.

 

[34D]

Yes you're right. There's no plans to remove local services through Dewsbury or Mirfield anyway.

No, but a semi fast service is (suggested as) likely to make a few calls in West Yorks - potentially Leeds bat dew mirfield hud marsden stalybridge (just my proposal).

Depends what you mean by the fast services. The 07:34 Dewsbury-Manchester Airport service calls at Stalybridge as well. So 2 extra calls may add around 3-4 minutes but then hopefully 3-4 minutes can be saved by using EMUs and by having less congestion around Ardwick.

I think our guy is concerned at Dewsbury loosing all TPE services to Manchester and Dew-man being replaced by an all stations semi-fast service.

My thinking of Middlesbrough going to XC is that it would allow more Manchester - Leeds - Newcastle EMUs to run (by diverting some Voyagers to Teesside instead).

When I lived in Leeds there were a fair few people from the Middlesbrough area who went down to study/live in West Yorkshire, so I can agree that some kind of through service would be needed (rather than just a shuttle to York).

Giving middlesbrough to XC seems sensible. I'm assuming that a Newcastle-Birmingham service would still exist, just less of them.

I'd pose as a question whether the folk in the north east would prefer to travel to Manchester/its airport or Birmingham/its airport though.

 

[Nym]

I think it's the link to Leeds for Middlesbrough that would be the most important one to keep, so I'd divert the XC via Leeds service into there and extend the via Doncaster service to Scotland then have 2tph for TPE up to Newcastle, with one of the EMUs extending to the border to provide the local service, or Northern taking pacers off this and putting EMUs on it.

Then have 2tph to Hull via Selby so the 4tph TPE core is 2tph Newcastle, 2tph Hull, with Scarbrough covered by extending the Blackpool service, and having another shuttle to York to give Scarbrough 2tph. It might be worth giving midds another service into York or Leeds.

 

[johnnychips]

I think our guy is concerned at Dewsbury loosing all TPE services to Manchester and Dew-man being replaced by an all stations semi-fast service.

I should expect Stalybridge - now over 1M passengers a year - would think it was losing out as well.

 

[table38]

I should expect Stalybridge - now over 1M passengers a year - would think it was losing out as well.

I'm sure our esteemed Councillor Whitehead will be on the case, he who assumed credit for First Trans Pennine and GMPTE's £1.5M improvements to Stalybridge Station

 

[tbtc]

Giving middlesbrough to XC seems sensible. I'm assuming that a Newcastle-Birmingham service would still exist, just less of them.

I'd pose as a question whether the folk in the north east would prefer to travel to Manchester/its airport or Birmingham/its airport though.

I think the way to do it would be to run

1. Birmingham - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Newcastle - Scotland
2. Birmingham - Sheffield - Leeds - York - Middlesbrough

Birmingham retains its faster service to Newcastle/ Scotland (something like twenty minutes faster than the "via Leeds" option), Leeds gains additional TPE services to Newcastle (to minimise diesels under the wires), the busy Sheffield - Leeds section of XC would be a bit more manageable without the Newcastle/ Scottish passengers, Middlesbrough retains its link to Leeds, it seems like a reasonable compromise in the circumstances

 

[Donny Dave]

I think the way to do it would be to run

1. Birmingham - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Newcastle - Scotland
2. Birmingham - Sheffield - Leeds - York - Middlesbrough

Very fair way of doing things, as it balances out trains to the north from Doncaster. Currently, you have the EC service at xx:10 followed by the XC service at xx:19 plus giving Doncaster an hourly service to Scotland, a service provision that has been butchered with the Eurika timetable.

 

[Waverley125]

and Leeds loses all trains to Scotland except its early morning/late evening East Coast HST to Aberdeen.

 

[johnnychips]

and Leeds loses all trains to Scotland except its early morning/late evening East Coast HST to Aberdeen.

This is the problem. If you did it backwards, then you create a direct link from Donny to Middlesbrough that didn't exist before (it has enough to Newcastle and Edinburgh), Leeds has a direct link to Scotland, and I really don't think 20 minutes is a great extra/existing hardship for other Midlands-Edinburgh passengers.

 

[ainsworth74]

This is the problem. If you did it backwards, then you create a direct link from Donny to Middlesbrough that didn't exist before (it has enough to Newcastle and Edinburgh), Leeds has a direct link to Scotland, and I really don't think 20 minutes is a great extra/existing hardship for other Midlands-Edinburgh passengers.

But then run into the problem that people from Middlesbrough want to travel to Leeds, not Donny...

 

[tbtc]

and Leeds loses all trains to Scotland except its early morning/late evening East Coast HST to Aberdeen.

I'd run some of the TPE EMUs to Edinburgh (maybe making the XC service bi-hourly north of Newcastle slotting into a bi-hourly TPE service)

Bear in mind that Leeds had no daytime Newcastle service until Operation Princess, apart from the daily Northern Spirit service up the S&C to Glasgow

 

[Donny Dave]

This is the problem. If you did it backwards, then you create a direct link from Donny to Middlesbrough that didn't exist before (it has enough to Newcastle and Edinburgh).

That's the problem. While there is 2 tph from Doncaster to Newcastle, they are at most 10 mins apart, so if you miss the XC service, you have 50 mins to wait.

Also, of those 2tph from Doncaster to Newcastle, only 8 of those a day go to Edinburgh. Between the 09:09 and 17:10 services from Doncaster, there is only 2 direct services, the 11:10 and 13:10.

Another thing about the NESW services going via Doncaster, is that service provision to Sheffield is slightly better as well, because you currently have the TPE service, the Hull - Sheffield and Newcastle - Reading and beyond service leaving Doncaster within 16 minutes of each other (these are all the fast services), leaving only the stoppers at xx:04 and xx:26.

Mind you, there would be a slight rejig of the timetable required, because as timings stand, the NESW service would leave Doncaster at xx:28, just 2 mins behind the all shacks service.

On the positive side though, it would enable the TPE service to be speeded up slightly, as it's checked every hour at Masborough for the xx:26 to come of the Holmes Chord and call at Meadowhall.

 

[34D]

I'd run some of the TPE EMUs to Edinburgh (maybe making the XC service bi-hourly north of Newcastle slotting into a bi-hourly TPE service)

Bear in mind that Leeds had no daytime Newcastle service until Operation Princess, apart from the daily Northern Spirit service up the S&C to Glasgow

No offence, but Leeds was served by Liverpool-Newcastle class 45 hauled trains when most of us were still in short trousers.

If you meant to say "leeds had no direct service to scotland" then I believe you are mistaken, as (in the days of cross country valentas and class 47s) there were a few Leeds-edinburgh services a day, plus (at that time) the afore-mentioned Leeds-Carlisle-Glasgow and before it class 45s doing Nottingham-Glasgow via Leeds.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But there are already moves afoot to wire both Hull via Selby & Temple Hirst, and Middlesbrough. Not only for TPE, but for the post-HS2 ECML, where they will then be able to utilise the existing 225s instead of needing new stock.

In what National Rail document is the electrification to both Hull and to Middlesbrough proposed and what is the timescale that is proposed for these works ?

 

[northwichcat]

I should expect Stalybridge - now over 1M passengers a year - would think it was losing out as well.

Stalybridge will gain services though. It'll lose 1 x TPE service per hour and gain 2 x Manchester-Leeds semi-fasts and will likely also gain an additional Victoria stopper.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it's the link to Leeds for Middlesbrough that would be the most important one to keep, so I'd divert the XC via Leeds service into there and extend the via Doncaster service to Scotland then have 2tph for TPE up to Newcastle, with one of the EMUs extending to the border to provide the local service, or Northern taking pacers off this and putting EMUs on it.

Then have 2tph to Hull via Selby so the 4tph TPE core is 2tph Newcastle, 2tph Hull, with Scarbrough covered by extending the Blackpool service, and having another shuttle to York to give Scarbrough 2tph. It might be worth giving midds another service into York or Leeds.

I think the way to do it would be to run

1. Birmingham - Sheffield - Doncaster - York - Newcastle - Scotland
2. Birmingham - Sheffield - Leeds - York - Middlesbrough

Birmingham retains its faster service to Newcastle/ Scotland (something like twenty minutes faster than the "via Leeds" option), Leeds gains additional TPE services to Newcastle (to minimise diesels under the wires), the busy Sheffield - Leeds section of XC would be a bit more manageable without the Newcastle/ Scottish passengers, Middlesbrough retains its link to Leeds, it seems like a reasonable compromise in the circumstances

I really like these ideas: I was initially quite dubious about diverting Crosscountry services to Middlesborough when I first saw it suggested on this thread, for purely selfish reasons as Birmingham to Newcastle is a long distance journey that I do fairly regularly, but these ideas have put my mind at ease about the concept. If the faster Birmingham to Newcastle service (via Donny) is retained then I think that everyone wins in these scenarios and that they constitute an excellent solution to providing regional connections to and from Middlesborough if it is not electrified.

 

[Waverley125]

Personally I think there's no point in routing XC services via Doncaster (pop. 150,000) when they could be routed via Leeds (pop. 800,000). But this is where the need for integrated timetable planning comes in.

For instance, were Doncaster to have a half-hourly service to Newcastle (I'm imagine calling York, Northallerton, Darlington & Durham) and to Edinburgh (Calling York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar) then there'd be no need for XC services to the North, and a regular fast service into Sheffield could give connections to the Southwest.

As for the 'Middlesbrough problem'-a fairly obvious solution would be a Middlesbrough-Leeds stopper by Northern, calling Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm & Thornaby to replace the current TPE service.

Obviously, if Middlesbrough gets wired, the problem goes away.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I think there's no point in routing XC services via Doncaster (pop. 150,000) when they could be routed via Leeds (pop. 800,000). But this is where the need for integrated timetable planning comes in.

800,000 is the whole borough not just city centre Leeds. On the same basis you could say New Pudsey serves a population of 800,000 as it is located within the boundary for 'City of Leeds.'

Going via Doncaster allows a faster service between Sheffield and York and consequently a faster service for longer distance services.

 

[Nym]

Not to mention that Doncaster covers connections for East Yorkshire and Northern Linconshire with the main areas of:

Selby, Hull, Bridlington, Beverley, Brough, Thorne, Scuntorpe, Cleethorpes etc.

Where connections from these places to Sheffeild are a little more inconvenient than connecting at Doncaster that is relatively painless.

 

[tbtc]

No offence, but Leeds was served by Liverpool-Newcastle class 45 hauled trains when most of us were still in short trousers.

If you meant to say "leeds had no direct service to scotland" then I believe you are mistaken, as (in the days of cross country valentas and class 47s) there were a few Leeds-edinburgh services a day, plus (at that time) the afore-mentioned Leeds-Carlisle-Glasgow and before it class 45s doing Nottingham-Glasgow via Leeds.

Sorry, I meant to say "no daytime Scotland service until Operation Princess, apart from the daily Northern Spirit service up the S&C to Glasgow"

The point being that there were three XC services a day north of Newcastle (all southbound first thing in the morning from Edinburgh, all northbound later in the evening), some of which ran via Doncaster, some of which ran via Leeds.

I'm talking about the final days of British Rail/ early days of Virgin (pre-Operation Princess, so over ten years ago) - no daytime Leeds - Scotland service (as the couple of trains a day that served Leeds were very early leaving Edinburgh/ very late arriving back - to be stabled at Craigentinny.

Stalybridge will gain services though. It'll lose 1 x TPE service per hour and gain 2 x Manchester-Leeds semi-fasts and will likely also gain an additional Victoria stopper.

At the moment Stalybridge has two trains an hour to Huddersfield. My understanding was that under the new plans it would retain two trains to Huddersfield?

I really like these ideas: I was initially quite dubious about diverting Crosscountry services to Middlesborough when I first saw it suggested on this thread, for purely selfish reasons as Birmingham to Newcastle is a long distance journey that I do fairly regularly, but these ideas have put my mind at ease about the concept. If the faster Birmingham to Newcastle service (via Donny) is retained then I think that everyone wins in these scenarios and that they constitute an excellent solution to providing regional connections to and from Middlesborough if it is not electrified.

There's potential (stage two in my masterplan...) for the Birmingham - Doncaster - Scotland XC service to be the "fast" one (with HSTs etc) concentrating on the longer distance passengers.

Personally I think there's no point in routing XC services via Doncaster (pop. 150,000) when they could be routed via Leeds (pop. 800,000). But this is where the need for integrated timetable planning comes in

Running via Leeds takes around fifteen/twenty minutes longer than running via Doncaster (and causes more potential for things to be delayed due to gridlock at Leeds City Station).

If you can retain the Leeds - Birmingham service and retain the Leeds - Newcastle service (passed to TPE) then cutting the XC "through" service via Leeds would allow passengers between Birmingham and Edinburgh a much faster journey (via Doncaster).

At the moment people are fond to complain that the XC service from Edinburgh to Scotland is a good bit slower than the Virgin service (via Warrington). One obvious reason for this is the time penalty for serving Leeds.

It also means that the busier XC service (of the two routes from Birmingham to Newcastle) also has to deal with the busiest passenger flow (Sheffield to Leeds). Changing the service as I propose would even up the passenger numbers better.

As for the 'Middlesbrough problem'-a fairly obvious solution would be a Middlesbrough-Leeds stopper by Northern, calling Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm & Thornaby to replace the current TPE service.

Obviously, if Middlesbrough gets wired, the problem goes away.

Agreed - that would make sense (Sprinters permitting) and free up more Voyagers. The Sprinters would also be able to integrate better with other Northern services in the area (e.g. through trips from Leeds to Saltburn).

However you would lose the second York - Birmingham XC service by doing that (the slower one, admittedly) - I'd be happy for your suggestion to happen though. Maybe even a half hourly Northern service from Manchester to York and on to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough via the Calderdale route?

 

[northwichcat]

At the moment Stalybridge has two trains an hour to Huddersfield. My understanding was that under the new plans it would retain two trains to Huddersfield?

Yep. Same number of services to Huddersfield but more services to Leeds and Manchester. I don't think the number to Liverpool have been confirmed.

 

[34D]

As for the 'Middlesbrough problem'-a fairly obvious solution would be a Middlesbrough-Leeds stopper by Northern, calling Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm & Thornaby to replace the current TPE service.

Obviously, if Middlesbrough gets wired, the problem goes away.

So what is being proposed is for all XC trains at Leeds (which presently go to Edinburgh) to be diverted via Doncaster, and instead the Reading-Newcastle service to come to Leeds and then divert to Middlesbrough. The current Manchester-Middlesbrough will go to Newcastle on AC.

Hmmm.

If Leeds' only service to Newcastle becomes TPE every 30 mins (with I assume 100mph limited Desiros) then I'd like one per hour to be semi-fast (as now) hud dews Leeds Garforth York Thirsk Northallerton Darlington Durham Chester le Street Newcastle and another perhaps hud leeds york darlington durham Newcastle.

The XC could then be sheffield wakefield w Leeds york thirsk northallerton yarm eaglescliffe thornaby middlesbrough (if a 4 or 5 coach voyager will fit into all of those - someone could perhaps check the sectional appendix).

While we're at it, does every Leeds-Manchester need to call at Hud? How good would journey times be if one an hour was non-stop?