North-South Junction at Sutton (london)

[317663]

I was at Sutton waiting for the 0753 to london victoria, and it came to me that a SUNDAY TRAIN TO EPSOM DOWNS was coming in but using the junctions on the carshalton (main) line instead of the Beeches way, why was it using this junction, I thought it was disused from when the Bognor regis services were withdrawn.
Here's a diagram:

Red indicates the junction. Why was it using this? Date: 20th july

 

[louis97]

I can't find the train you are referring to, and am confused by your reference to the Bognor Regis trains - but the bit of track you have highlighted is used a couple of times a day for trains from Carshalton direction going into Platform 4.

 

[MarkyT]

. . . the bit of track you have highlighted is used a couple of times a day for trains from Carshalton direction going into Platform 4.

Agreed the vast majority of Epsom Downs trains to or from Victoria run via West Croydon, but there are a couple a day that run via Carshalton. It's also possible to turn a train back towards London in one of the Epsom Downs platforms.

I didn't really understand the Bognor reference either. Was there a time when the Epsom Downs trains ran via Carshalton routinely? If so perhaps the routing changed at the same time as the Bognor trains were diverted away via Gatwick.

 

[tsr]

Some trains used to travel towards the Arun Valley via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham quite regularly - hence why the lines in this direction on the route through Sutton are regularly marked/shown/labelled as "P", for "Portsmouth". There is therefore no reason why trains could not also head to Bognor Regis. These services have now been diverted for various reasons via Gatwick, as you say. However, if the line between Horsham and Three Bridges/East Croydon is blocked by some disruption or other, trains can and do still divert via Sutton - subject to paths being available, route knowledge, etc.

 

[317663]

Agreed the vast majority of Epsom Downs trains to or from Victoria run via West Croydon, but there are a couple a day that run via Carshalton. It's also possible to turn a train back towards London in one of the Epsom Downs platforms.

I didn't really understand the Bognor reference either. Was there a time when the Epsom Downs trains ran via Carshalton routinely? If so perhaps the routing changed at the same time as the Bognor trains were diverted away via Gatwick.

I mean when the bognor regis services were withdrawn, as far as I know pretty much the whole of the stations services changed.

 

[steevp]

Some trains used to travel towards the Arun Valley via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham quite regularly

When I worked the route in the early eighties there were two trains from Victoria (17:20 and 17:50) that stopped Sutton, Dorking and Horsham, Billingshurst, Pulborough, Arundel, Barnham - split portions to Bognor and Portsmouth, There were trains in the morning to Vic but I can't recall any timings. They were very popular (except with the people who really wanted East Croydon )

 

[mister-sparky]

When I worked the route in the early eighties there were two trains from Victoria (17:20 and 17:50) that stopped Sutton, Dorking and Horsham, Billingshurst, Pulborough, Arundel, Barnham - split portions to Bognor and Portsmouth, There were trains in the morning to Vic but I can't recall any timings. They were very popular (except with the people who really wanted East Croydon )

I have timetables from the 50s which show hourly off-peak from Victoria to Bognor Regis via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham. When did they stop being routed this way and diverted via Gatwick?

 

[NSE]

At a guess, when Gatwick Airport started becoming a good source of money and a popular destination

 

[MidnightFlyer]

1980s I believe.

 

[317663]

I have timetables from the 50s which show hourly off-peak from Victoria to Bognor Regis via Sutton, Dorking and Horsham. When did they stop being routed this way and diverted via Gatwick?

1996 as far as I know.

 

[Hassocks5489]

I thought it was 1978, when the whole timetable for the area was recast (I'm not too good on pre-Network SouthEast history, but I think it's what was known as the South Central Division). I might be able to dig out some info in one of my rail books.

 

[N Levers]

The Historical Bognor service wouldn't have used that crossover anyway as they were routed via Epsom not Epsom Downs.

In the present day that crossover is used by ECS movements into platform 4 and when there is weekend engineering work between Sutton and Epsom.

 

[DY444]

The Bognors/Pompeys via Sutton stopped at the May 1984 timetable change.

There have been times over the years when the Victoria - Epsom Downs service was booked to run via Mitcham Jn although that hasn't happened for a while.

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe it was due to a diversion via Mitcham Junction or a points failure ?

 

[Deepgreen]

Slightly off-topic, but talk of the Bognor trains reminds me of an evening in January 1982, when a blizzard had struck and trains were badly disrupted. One that was running was the 1720 to Bognor which normally stopped at Sutton (where I was stranded by the early termination of my train), but was then fast to Dorking. That day it was also stopped at Epsom (where I needed to get to) and I happened to get into the buffet car of the centre unit (4BIG). I remember the slightly surreal feel as we departed from Sutton with normally-buffetless suburban passengers queueing for coffee, etc., at the counter. Despite a line speed of 60mph, I clocked us at 88mph between Cheam and Epsom!

Back to the question - as this was early on a Sunday morning, I wonder if there were engineering works on the West Croydon line that day?

 

[317663]

Slightly off-topic, but talk of the Bognor trains reminds me of an evening in January 1982, when a blizzard had struck and trains were badly disrupted. One that was running was the 1720 to Bognor which normally stopped at Sutton (where I was stranded by the early termination of my train), but was then fast to Dorking. That day it was also stopped at Epsom (where I needed to get to) and I happened to get into the buffet car of the centre unit (4BIG). I remember the slightly surreal feel as we departed from Sutton with normally-buffetless suburban passengers queueing for coffee, etc., at the counter. Despite a line speed of 60mph, I clocked us at 88mph between Cheam and Epsom!

Back to the question - as this was early on a Sunday morning, I wonder if there were engineering works on the West Croydon line that day?

a) I've been on a rush hour service in 2013 on a London VIctoria-Dorking only calling at Clapham Junction, Sutton and Dorking.

b) I believe there were engineering works near victoria, I mean beyond Clapham, I doubt it'll affect mitcham/balham, although it can happen!