North of England needs more permanent fixes

[northwichcat]

Travelwatch has claimed sending old cascaded units to the North of England can only be seen as a temporary fix and there also needs to be long term solutions:

http://www.travelwatch-northwest.org.uk/NewsNorthernTrains_811.pdf

 

[PhilipW]

Travelwatch has claimed sending old cascaded units to the North of England can only be seen as a temporary fix and there also needs to be long term solutions:

A statement of the obvious, I think

 

[eMeS]

At least they're likely to have open-able windows for when the air-conditioning fails...

If only the decision makers had to endure being broiled alive. (Class 350 Desiro at Euston)

 

[Chapeltom]

The great thing about 142s and 150s is... the windows! You can actually open and close them! On 142s you may be fried alive on a 27C summers day by sitting next to a window, but you will actually have some comfort of what little air manages to come through them...

 

[tbtc]

A statement of the obvious, I think

Agreed - I didn't think anyone was under the impression that cascaded EMUs (e.g. 319s) were going to last forever?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Will we ever see the day when the Northern counties of England will be seen as not the final residence of train fleets that have seen better days, but as an equal partner for the provision of new stock.

I have said it before that the words of the song "Second-hand Rose" by Barbra Streisand have much to say about the current system of rail fleet distribution in the North

 

[northwichcat]

A statement of the obvious, I think

It is but I'm guessing the reason for releasing such a statement is in the hope the government will announce some long term plans e.g. Pacer and 150 replacement programs.

 

[tbtc]

Will we ever see the day when the Northern counties of England will be seen as not the final residence of train fleets that have seen better days, but as an equal partner for the provision of new stock.

I have said it before that the words of the song "Second-hand Rose" by Barbra Streisand have much to say about the current system of rail fleet distribution in the North

To be fair Peter there have been a lot of new trains in the North of England, the problem is that these tend to be for longer distance routes.

London services - 180s/ 220s/ 222s/ 390s
Trans Pennine - 185s (plus a handful of 170s)
XC - 220/221s

Most of the rubbish stock that we have is rubbish stock that we've always had (e.g. most 142s are "first hand" rather than "second hand"), I don't think that we are necesarily a dumping ground for old unwanted "southern" stock (in the way that bus operators cascade knackered buses from London to "the provinces). Whilst some Pacers are coming back, remember that they went south before (as did the 143s from the North East). I take your point in relation to the LM 150 cascade, but most of the poor trains we have are ones which we've always had.

The two problems are firstly that there's been no improvement to "local" train fleets (all of the investment in the North has been for longer distance units like the 185s to replace 158s, and not to tackle the 142s etc). The second problem is that electrification over the past fifteen years has been minimal round these parts.

 

[northwichcat]

To be fair Peter there have been a lot of new trains in the North of England, the problem is that these tend to be for longer distance routes.

London services - 180s/ 220s/ 222s/ 390s
Trans Pennine - 185s (plus a handful of 170s)
XC - 220/221s

Interesting definition of 'new' there. The 180s and 170s with TPE are ten years old and were both operating in the South when they were brand new. I accept 10 years old is not life expired, but on a BBC News program passengers travelling on a Southern 171 were moaning about them having to travel on 'old' trains.

Whilst some Pacers are coming back, remember that they went south before (as did the 143s from the North East).

While the Cornish 142s were sent up North.

The second problem is that electrification over the past fifteen years has been minimal round these parts.

What parts of the country has it not been minimal in?

 

[jopsuk]

Travelwatch has claimed sending old cascaded units to the North of England can only be seen as a temporary fix and there also needs to be long term solutions:

http://www.travelwatch-northwest.org.uk/NewsNorthernTrains_811.pdf

Does that mean they reject the insane idea of using old LU trains?

 

[tbtc]

Interesting definition of 'new' there. The 180s and 170s with TPE are ten years old and were both operating in the South when they were brand new. I accept 10 years old is not life expired, but on a BBC News program passengers travelling on a Southern 171 were moaning about them having to travel on 'old' trains

I'm just listing post-privatisation DMUs, as thats a handy cut-off in the debate between what is old/new.

I could have included the 175s which were new to Manchester area services and still run two Manchester routes (albeit they run to Wales now and are not wholly contained in the "North").

The point is that many middle/long distance services in Northern England have had newer trains since privatisation, most short distance services in Northern England have not had newer trains since privatisation.

(and, for the purposes of argument, I'm talking about services you'd spend a long/short time on, since nobody is going to sit on a 153 from Lancaster to Carlisle via Whitehaven or a Pacer from Leeds to Manchester via Halifax)

 

[Anvil1984]

Pacer from Leeds to Manchester via Halifax)

Erm as someone who works the line I beg to differ, a few do travel from Leeds all the way to Victoria on a Pacer because its slightly cheaper especially if they use the Northern Duo for the route Hebden Bridge tickets. Plus Leeds - Rochdale on one of them still isnt great

 

[northwichcat]

I could have included the 175s which were new to Manchester area services and still run two Manchester routes (albeit they run to Wales now and are not wholly contained in the "North").

They've always run in to Wales, but it only used to be North Wales they ran in to. The original services which saw 175s on most/all of them were:
Manchester Airport to Blackpool
Manchester Airport to Barrow
Manchester Airport to Windermere
Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno/Holyhead
Birmingham/Crewe to Holyhead

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I take your point in relation to the LM 150 cascade, but most of the poor trains we have are ones which we've always had.

The two problems are firstly that there's been no improvement to "local" train fleets (all of the investment in the North has been for longer distance units like the 185s to replace 158s, and not to tackle the 142s etc). The second problem is that electrification over the past fifteen years has been minimal round these parts.

I am glad you mentioned the LM150 cascade. In my posting, I was referring to the current examples that are in the pipeline such as this...not for the rubbish we have been inured to in past years.

The "Second-hand Rose" comment nicely fits into the type of cascaded electric stock that has been earmarked for the current electrification progress. I always seem to have an attack of "Class 142 syndrome" every Friday at present...which brings the cynic out in me. I will have to stop looking at the pictures in the Modern Railways advertisments by Siemens, Hitachi Rail, etc and expecting such modern products to operate in the North of England.

 

[tbtc]

Erm as someone who works the line I beg to differ, a few do travel from Leeds all the way to Victoria on a Pacer because its slightly cheaper especially if they use the Northern Duo for the route Hebden Bridge tickets. Plus Leeds - Rochdale on one of them still isnt great

Fair enough, I didn't realise that people were that tight/savvy that they'd sit on a Pacer for best part of two hours instead of a 185s for best part of an hour - I can't argue with your "first hand" experience though.

The Caldervale line is certainly the prettier of the two

 

[northwichcat]

Fair enough, I didn't realise that people were that tight/savvy that they'd sit on a Pacer for best part of two hours instead of a 185s for best part of an hour - I can't argue with your "first hand" experience though.

The Caldervale line is certainly the prettier of the two

For a start at least 2/3rds of Calder Vale services are 155s or 158s. Even when you get a 142 or 144 it sometimes has a 153 tagged on to it. There's also quite a few Manchester-Hulls that are 170 operated. I actually prefer 170s to 185s so I wouldn't say it's an inferior unit. However, the TPE 170s are only 2 car so there is a higher risk of having to stand.

I've just had a look in to pricing and journey times on Caldervale vs North TPE.

For one person:
Leeds-Manchester Route: Any Permitted Anytime Return: £24.20.
Leeds-Manchester Route: Hebden Bridge Anytime Return: £18.40.
Leeds-Manchester Route: Any Permitted Off Peak Day Return: £16.50.
Leeds-Manchester Route: Hebden Bridge Off Peak Day Return: £14.80.

For two people:
Leeds-Manchester Route: Any Permitted Off Peak Day Return x 2: £33.00.
Leeds-Manchester Route: Hebden Bridge Duo Ticket: £22.20.

Journey times:
North TPE: around 55 minutes
Caldervale: More variable. Fastest 1hr35.

So imagine if you're a couple living in Leeds who go to Manchester together around 24 times a year on leisure trips and aren't ever in a rush to get there or back:
On North TPE that'd cost £792.00
On Caldervale that'd cost £532.80

Over a year that'd save you over £250 using Caldervale.

I do, however, appreciate the extended journey time wouldn't be of interest for someone living in Leeds and working in Manchester or vice versa unless they are very short of cash.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Of course, the north isn't the only place that needs "more permanent fixes". The same is true for much of Wales and South West England too. Way too many pacers being used in both areas.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Of course, the north isn't the only place that needs "more permanent fixes". The same is true for much of Wales and South West England too. Way too many pacers being used in both areas.

It seems to be a unanimous opinion amongst forum members that any region having Pacers claim that they have too many of them.

 

[Anvil1984]

In the case of the Manchester to Leeds argument, yes then Calderdale via Halifax is exclusively 15x booked but it is a common occurance to see a 142 turn up (usually on the diagram which involves the 1107 semi fast from Leeds to Víc) vice 150. Also the Calderdale via Dewsbury is nearly exclusive 144 territory. The line via Halifax does have a few Leeds to Manchester passengers due to the price difference and also when events are on at the MEN but there are also quite a lot of New Pudsey /Bramley to Manchester commuters who are on the train more than an hour.

Also on medium journeys you have quite a lot of the Carlisle to Newcastle and Newcastle to Middlesborough services as pacers as well. Sheffield to Lincoln is usually a 144 when I've got it and that'll have a few through passengers

 

[Minstral25]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks the new units in the South are permanent fixes either. The numbers on trains all round the country are increasing rapidly as our roads get more congested and as people are forced to look further afield for work.

The FGW route into Paddington has been singled out already as the most overcrowded route in the UK and they are only getting second hand units - I'm pretty sure that is in the South.

The issue is (as a generality) there are overcrowded 6-8 coach trains in the London region and overcrowded 2-3 coach trains in the "North". So it makes sense that you replace the London trains with 10 or 12 coach trains (i.e. Crossrail/Thameslink) and send the 6-8 coach trains to the "North" where they can relieve capacity

In the medium/long term they will need replacing with new stock as the new 10/12 coach trains in the south are unlikely to ever head North.

Additionally at some time the "Pacers" will be replaced with new stock - there are not enough units in the South likely to move North for long term replacement. However I'd point out South of London we have desperately needed more stock since the Slam Door replacements in the early part of the 2000's and we can't wait for the Thameslink units in 2016/8 to provide much needed capacity (why can't they deliver them earlier!!!!)

 

[northwichcat]

The same is true for much of Wales and South West England too. Way too many pacers being used in both areas.

For South Wales, which has 30 Pacers in the area, I'd agree with. However, the South West that'll have just 8 Pacers from December and the biggest collection of rural lines in England I think you can actually say they'll have too few in comparison to other areas. Although, like other posters I agree it's time for them to be replaced - 142s first then 143s and 144s.

 

[Blindtraveler]

i like pacers

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Additionally at some time the "Pacers" will be replaced with new stock - there are not enough units in the South likely to move North for long term replacement. However I'd point out South of London we have desperately needed more stock since the Slam Door replacements in the early part of the 2000's and we can't wait for the Thameslink units in 2016/8 to provide much needed capacity (why can't they deliver them earlier!!!!)

I note your comment "at some time" at the start of the posting above with regard to the time of Pacer replacement....then set this comment against your "Thameslink units in 2016/8" comment, to show how North of England forum members seem to feel about their region being somewhat overlooked in comparison to areas of London and its surrounding areas, in terms of new (not cascaded) stock provision. You talk about "the early part of the 2000's" in your posting, but there are other areas that go back further in time than this for the reason that you have given.

I can well imagine the horror at Paddington amongst the regular commuters, if 10-coach Class 142 Pacer sets were suddenly to appear on the scene to run services.

 

[Yew]

I can well imagine the horror at Paddington amongst the regular commuters, if 10-coach Class 142 Pacer sets were suddenly to appear on the scene to run services.

Maybe we could try this as an experiment? With bench seating of course?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Caldervale line is certainly the prettier of the two

In the good old days of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, the Caldervale line through Hebden Bridge did see itself as far more of a main line than as is the case today.

With regards to "prettier", there are two towns with the word "Bridge" in them, that see services from Manchester to West Yorkshire. These are Hebden Bridge and Guide Bridge...which of these two areas are deemed to be the "prettier" :roll:

 

[Minstral25]

I note your comment "at some time" at the start of the posting above with regard to the time of Pacer replacement....then set this comment against your "Thameslink units in 2016/8" comment, to show how North of England forum members seem to feel about their region being somewhat overlooked in comparison to areas of London and its surrounding areas, in terms of new (not cascaded) stock provision. You talk about "the early part of the 2000's" in your posting, but there are other areas that go back further in time than this for the reason that you have given.

I can well imagine the horror at Paddington amongst the regular commuters, if 10-coach Class 142 Pacer sets were suddenly to appear on the scene to run services.

Fair point and I don't really argue that trains are not needed in the North because they are. I'm just saying that in the South we also need more and more units as trains are massively overcrowded down here. Try finding a seat North of Three Bridges on any service into London Bridge in the morning

It makes sense to bring in 12 car units to replace 4/8 car units and then use the 4/8 car units to improve services elsewhere, we would need extra units if we kept our current ones anyway - then you would end up with more non-standard units for each operator

I think a 10 coach pacer would be preferred to a 5 or 6 coach class 165 if they offered more seats - however I am not sure of the relative capacities or if a 142 could keep time.

 

[northwichcat]

I think a 10 coach pacer would be preferred to a 5 or 6 coach class 165 if they offered more seats - however I am not sure of the relative capacities or if a 142 could keep time.

Pacers aren't quick to accelerate and their acceleration is affected by overcrowding a lot more than other trains. They are also 75mph top speed. This would be a problem in London but is also a problem currently in Manchester. Stockport-Manchester allows 90mph running but because Northern have so many 75mph paths it means there aren't enough paths at peak times so some lines have less services to Manchester then they actually need.

 

[tbtc]

Pacers aren't quick to accelerate and their acceleration is affected by overcrowding a lot more than other trains. They are also 75mph top speed. This would be a problem in London but is also a problem currently in Manchester. Stockport-Manchester allows 90mph running but because Northern have so many 75mph paths it means there aren't enough paths at peak times so some lines have less services to Manchester then they actually need.

Northern's 150s are 75mph (as are their 156s), so its not like replacing the Pacers would mean all paths could be upgraded to 90mph from Stockport to Manchester.

As far as I am aware there are no plans to replace their 150s or 156s, so Pacer withdrawn would have no difference to the number of Stockport - Manchester paths.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Enjoying the views on here and what I'm about to add doesn't realy fit into the thread but I note the thoughts on the Caldervale line ( when did it change from Calderdale?) - and would just like to say that I spent a day in West Yorks this week revisiting old haunts - I used to live in Tod from1976 - 1980. I was quite taken aback by the improvement in the services offered on the line, Pacers or not!
When I lived there it was an hourly service from Leeds to Manchester via Halifax and that was it - three trains an hour from Tod (and the service up the Copy Pit line) is such an improvement.
As I lost track (sorry) of the rail scene when I took to the car until a few years ago I am not sure of the reason for this improvement......was it funding through West Yorks Metro? ( I'm not even sure what that is!)

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's 150s are 75mph (as are their 156s), so its not like replacing the Pacers would mean all paths could be upgraded to 90mph from Stockport to Manchester.

As far as I am aware there are no plans to replace their 150s or 156s, so Pacer withdrawn would have no difference to the number of Stockport - Manchester paths.

If you look at the Pacers and Sprinters running through Stockport at peak times around 1/3 of them are on services that either could be run by EMUs if Northern had more or could be run by EMUs after electrification projects i.e. they continue to Bolton/Preston/Blackpool.

Northern are losing a share of Stockport-Manchester revenue by not having a couple of more paths, a point they made to ORR when Virgin's VHF frequency was proposed, so if switching a few 150/6s on Buxton and Mid Cheshire services for faster DMUs allows them a couple of extra paths then it would be in their best financial interests to do so.

We don't know what will happen with the new Northern/TPE franchise at present and where existing rolling stock will be utilised. All the 144s, 155s, MetroTrain 158s, 321s and 333s are only guaranteed to be used on West Yorks services until 2014 after that they could finish up anywhere.