North London Line

[Minstral25]

Working in Dalston I have followed the opening of the East London Line but I wondered how much is known about the North London Line when it opens rebuilt between Gospel Oak and Stratford.

I'm pretty sure Highbury and Canonbury stations will be on the Northern tracks on reopening instead of the southern tracks and that the section through from Camden through Highbury to Dalston will be converted to AC from DC.

Any other major changes known, new service patterns and will the 313's all be gone on reopening?

 

[MCR247]

The 313s have been all gone for ages on the North London Line

 

[GB]

Can anyone tell me please when it is booked to reopen?

 

[Chris125]

Can anyone tell me please when it is booked to reopen?

If there arent any problems, the 1st of June.

Chris

 

[GB]

thanks

 

[Minstral25]

The 313s have been all gone for ages on the North London Line

313's were still working when the line closed in February?

Presumably as less units are needed to run half the line, currently they are not running but will they return when the full line is open again?

 

[swt_passenger]

Deliveries of 378/0s have carried on while the line has been closed, and a fair number of 313s have been transferred to SN. All the signs are that there won't be 313s seen on the NLL/WLL come reopening.

Can confirm the NLL will be AC only between Stratford and Acton Central. There will be a transfer connection between the ELL and NLL at Highbury somewhere to allow dual voltage 378s to get down to New Cross Gate for maintenance.

This London Reconnections article includes a couple of video simulations of the finished layout which people might find interesting:

http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2010/03/north-london-line-up-and-down-videos.html

 

[jopsuk]

Somewhat related- is there any aspiration to put wires over the Watford DC- at least from Harrow (and even South of Queen's Park)? I know there's been mention of the opposite idea- of running the Bakerloo through to Watford.

 

[MCR247]

313's were still working when the line closed in February?

Presumably as less units are needed to run half the line, currently they are not running but will they return when the full line is open again?

Pumbaa posted the last 313 workings on the NLL a while back

Already done. Last 313s ran on the WLL and NLL last night;

2N30- 22.36 Richmond to Stratford arriving 23:35 (313111)- then running empty to Willesden TMD
2N35- 23:33 Stratford to Camden Road- arrving 23:53 (313113)- then running empty to Euston
2N34- 23:17 Richmond to Willesden- arriving 23:33 (313119)- then running empty to Watford

 

[jon0844]

When they link up the East London Line to Highbury & Islington, it really would make sense for TfL to snap up the Northern City Line and FCC's inner suburban services to Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City, and dump the 313s for 378s there too - which have already been tested to Moorgate successfully I'm told.

 

[jopsuk]

When they link up the East London Line to Highbury & Islington, it really would make sense for TfL to snap up the Northern City Line and FCC's inner suburban services to Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City, and dump the 313s for 378s there too - which have already been tested to Moorgate successfully I'm told.

Suppose it's less far from Charing Cross than Chesham is (as the crow flies- Chesham is 24 miles).

NXEA's Hertford East, Enfield Town, Chingford and Shenfield services?

Southeastern's Dartford, Sevenoaks, Slade Green, Loop, Barnehurst, Hayes, Orpington- even Gravesend?

Southern and SWT Metro services? 378s all round, out to an encircling Zone 9?
(obviously not Chiltern and Thames Valley routes, whilst they remain Diesel.

My crazy: switch the fourth rail system on the SubSurface to 3rd- shared tracks with Tube lines can be handled the same way as on the Watford DC. I've heard tale of mrk2s being hauled round the Circle- surely a 378 would fit?

 

[jon0844]

I am sure that if TfL ever does take over the FCC inner-suburban services, which will see trains presumably running to Highbury & Islington and Moorgate 7 days a week, I am sure they could snap up other routes.

London Overground could then sort out the zones to expand zone 7-9 to places like Potters Bar and Welwyn Garden City, bringing it nicely into the Oyster system at the same time.

I can't really see any downsides, and I am sure TfL must be thinking about this - especially if tests were done to try 378s out to Moorgate. Does anyone know the route taken to get there? I presume they had to go via Finsbury Park, but where did they come from there?

 

[O L Leigh]

Off the NLL and via the Cannonbury Tunnel, I would assume. Same way WA ECS reached Hornsey.

O L Leigh

 

[A0]

I am sure that if TfL ever does take over the FCC inner-suburban services, which will see trains presumably running to Highbury & Islington and Moorgate 7 days a week, I am sure they could snap up other routes.

London Overground could then sort out the zones to expand zone 7-9 to places like Potters Bar and Welwyn Garden City, bringing it nicely into the Oyster system at the same time.

I can't really see any downsides, and I am sure TfL must be thinking about this - especially if tests were done to try 378s out to Moorgate. Does anyone know the route taken to get there? I presume they had to go via Finsbury Park, but where did they come from there?

I suspect there will be alot of opposition from FCC (or whoever the incumbent is) to handing over the inner suburban GN services to TFL.

The Watford and NLL services are very different.

The Watford DC services ran as a self-contained operation away from the 'outer suburban' services. Not so on the GN.

And if you extended Oyster to WGC what about other lines which are as far out of London - WGC is 20 miles from KX - so what about Harpenden on the Midland? Or High Wycombe on the Chiltern line? In fact the GN 'inner suburban' services actually reach Letchworth most of the time - so then you'd need to extend Oyster most of the way to Cambridge....

 

[Aictos]

Best bet would be to terminate all trains at Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City and have the semi stoppers ie Kings Cross, Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield then all stations change so one of the half hourly services is Kings Cross, Hertford North then all Stations to Cambridge or Peterborough.

Saying that though what would be ideal and would certainly improve the capacity of Stevenage is to built a new 12 car island platform on the Down side which means losing a few car parking spaces and relocating access to the bridge, but if built with new track to Langley Junction then there's no real reason not to terminate the Hertford Loop services there instead at Letchworth, if anyone wants Letchworth get them to use the Cambridge or Royston services.

 

[jon0844]

Is Letchworth actually considered inner-suburban though? I know trains do go there that are all station, but is that just out of convenience for the TOC? I always thought it was Herford North and WGC (so that even leaves Watton-at-Stone out).

Elaine Holt was in talks with TfL on the inner-suburban services back in 2006. The plan was to get more trains to run services at 15 minute intervals (creating a tube-like turn up and go service) which would be even more frequent from Alexandra Palance to Moorgate.

I always figured then that this would come with investment from TfL, and would expand the Oyster card out (and Hatfield/WGC would probably be about in line with zone 9?). There have been talks about extending zone 6 out too - right back to when it was Wagn (so you had Cuffley, Potters Bar, Cheshunt as contenders).

Now, how you extend the zones around the rest of London remains to be seen - but it would make perfect sense for a greater London railway service based around Oyster. In fact, you could probably extend another zone or two in future years.

Anyway, back to my point; I don't think FCC would be against the idea. In any case, this would likely happen when the franchise is up for renewal anyway. What happened when TfL stepped in and took over the NLL?

 

[A60K]

I agree that FCC would be unlikely to object - a franchisee has now thoughts of its own, the DfT does all the thinking for them.

With the NLL Ken basically said to the DfT that we'll take this over and save you a bit of work, and the DfT said OK. The only problem with taking over the GN routes is that Boris probably doesn't have the inclination to expand the Overground in the way that Ken did.

Ideally you would have the Moorgate routes as Overground, and look at reopening Finsbury Park to Muswell Hill as well.

 

[Aictos]

Welwyn Garden City and Letchworth Garden City could easily be classed as a Outer Suburban station as the majority of trains serve Peterborough, Cambridge, Kings Lynn and Kings Cross with a number of Inner Suburban services making up the rest of the services.

Hertford North could be classed as a Outer Suburban station as despite having mainly Inner Suburban services call, there are two direct Cambridge/Peterborough services available and some of the Outers do call there when being diverted via Hertford.

 

[ert47]

Arent there plans for Thameslink services to be eventually connected to the east coast mainline with services being connected to Kings Lynn, Cambridge and Peterborough?
I'd imagine that most of these services would be Outer Suburban-like with few trains calling into Kings Cross at peak as frequency within the SnowHill Tunnel would be close to capacity with all the eventual services running through there.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think that many trains will run through to Gatwick or Brighton from the ECML. Possibly one per hour or even less during off-peak periods?

In any case, there's no real hardship in getting off at King's Cross and walking over to St Pancras. If you've just done a journey on FCC from Peterborough or Cambridge, you'll probably quite appreciate the break - especially as King's Cross will be finished and have loads of shops and facilities.

I do hope that Boris can now succeed in securing the finance for Crossrail and to do the TL project properly. There have been all sorts of rumours about cutbacks, including not actually joining the two lines up (at least straight away).

 

[A60K]

I don't think Boris has any say or money in Thameslink - that's entirely a DfT/NR project, unlike Crossrail where TfL is taking the lead.

After the battle with the Labour administration over money for the SLL Overground extension and Surrey Canal Road station, it will be interesting to see if he has better luck getting money out of the Mongrel (his description, not mine)!

 

[Old Timer]

.....There have been all sorts of rumours about cutbacks, including not actually joining the two lines up (at least straight away).

Thameslink is horribly overspent, to the point that its continuation requires a massive injection of additional money which will have to come from somewhere.

 

[Aictos]

Thameslink is horribly overspent, to the point that its continuation requires a massive injection of additional money which will have to come from somewhere.

Well as I've said before rather then spend money on brand new trains, they would be far better off if they just went ahead and placed a order for dual voltage 377s or 379s.

Still, aint't all NR projects overspending as usual?

 

[Old Timer]

There has been talk of LO taking over what in effect would be the old NSE Inner Suburban area, with trains running forward to a logical turn-round location, e.g Watford/St Albans Abbey/Tring (possibly)/St Albans City/Welwyn Garden City where this would be outside of the area.

 

[jon0844]

I don't think Boris has any say or money in Thameslink - that's entirely a DfT/NR project, unlike Crossrail where TfL is taking the lead.

I mentioned this because he, himself, said he wanted to ensure the Thameslink project was completed as planned. Perhaps he was simply speaking as someone who hoped the new Government would do so, rather than him having any direct control.

I would have thought that rail projects are likely to be fairly safe - although if the projects have overspent, that's a whole different matter. Mind you, wouldn't that mean heads should roll for not keeping a tighter reign on things?

 

[LE Greys]

I don't think that many trains will run through to Gatwick or Brighton from the ECML. Possibly one per hour or even less during off-peak periods?

In any case, there's no real hardship in getting off at King's Cross and walking over to St Pancras. If you've just done a journey on FCC from Peterborough or Cambridge, you'll probably quite appreciate the break - especially as King's Cross will be finished and have loads of shops and facilities.

I'd greatly value a direct Hitchin-Gatwick service when carrying a lot of luggage. My estimation would be four per hour. Cambridge-Brighton (fast), Peterborough-Brighton (fast), Cambridge-Somewhere Else (semi-fast) and Peterborough-Somewhere Else (semi-fast). The Cambridge non-stoppers and inner-suburban services would not be affected.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, you certainly want through services - but two per hour (as we have currently with the Peterborough/Cambridge semi-fast trains) would probably suffice for a lot of the time.

Clearly you'd go for these to get to Gatwick or Brighton, while others could require a change and short walk. I'd probably be happy to stop at King's Cross to break an otherwise long journey with no buffet service on either TL or GN.

Mind you, they could always bring back buffet trolleys. I am sure many companies would PAY to sell goods on the trains.

 

[LE Greys]

Just to clarify:
How many paths per hour will there be...
...through the Snow Hill Tunnel?
...through Kentish Town-Luton?
...to Brighton?
...to Sutton?
...to anywhere else?

 

[jopsuk]

I think Snow Hill is supposed to be 24 if the Automatic Train Control system is fitted, or 20 if not.

Is the junction at St Pancras (International junction?) "flat" or "flying"? As far as I'm aware the one at the end of the link at the GN (Copenhagen junction?) is due to be "flat"?

 

[swt_passenger]

Just to clarify:
How many paths per hour will there be...
...through the Snow Hill Tunnel?
...through Kentish Town-Luton?
...to Brighton?
...to Sutton?
...to anywhere else?

Sutton is an easy one, none. The Sutton/Wimbledon loop will most likely not even be part of the franchise. A possible candidate for transfer to LO, or failing that SN...

The 'Thameslink south' peak service pattern is fairly well laid out in various NR RUS documents, and is currently proposed to be as follows in 2015:
Southern side
Brighton 4tph
Horsham 2 tph
Three Bridges 2 tph
East Grinstead 2 tph
East Croydon 2tph
Norwood Junction 2 tph
Southeastern side:
Orpington 2 tph - 8 car
Tunbridge Wells 2 tph
Paddock Wood 2 tph
Sevenoaks 2 tph - 8 car
Maidstone East 2 tph - 8 car

NB - these are not all new services, those that aren't current Thameslink franchise will replace existing SN/SE routes from those origins.