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North London improvement ideas?

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321362

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Since there's already a South London equivalent to this thread, I thought it might be a good idea to make this one.

I'll start it off: I think we need more through intercity services using the North London Line. It would require quadtracking, but it's essentially the only east/west corridor north of the river. In an ideal future you could run trains off one mainline, onto the NLL and onto another mainline (e.g. Gatwick to Stansted without having to change)
 
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30907

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If you wanted to run Gatwick to Stansted (why?) via St Pancras you would rebuild the curves at Kentish Town and South Tottenham onto and off the GOBLIN/Suffragette line. Far simpler and probably quicker.

(Back in the day St P was IIRC suggested as the terminus for the Stansted Express rather than Liverpool St.)
 

Magdalia

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I'll start it off: I think we need more through intercity services using the North London Line. It would require quadtracking, but it's essentially the only east/west corridor north of the river. In an ideal future you could run trains off one mainline, onto the NLL and onto another mainline (e.g. Gatwick to Stansted without having to change)
The Elizabeth Line is the east-west corridor north of the river.

The North London line is not going to get 4 tracks, apart from the existing bit between Camden and Dalston. It doesn't need any intercity services.

Almost nobody wants to travel between Gatwick and Stansted, which is north-south, not east-west.
 

Class15

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Why do we need intercity services on the North London line? It works fine as is (the timetable, that is, not the actual reliability).

What we could do with is some extra signal sections and a Wanstead Park - Ilford chord to get the Felixstowe freights away from Stratford.
 

D1511

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The amount of demolition to create the space for quad tracking plus the sheer number of new structures would make this a staggering undertaking.....
NLL certainly has a congestion issue and a desperate shortage of paths, but this seems a lot of effort for unnecessary intercity services already replicated elsewhere and a bit of growth in Thames estuary intermodal traffic. Just sort Ely and EWR for a fraction of the cost and remove the intermodals from the NLL.
(It also saves the chaos of them crossing the GA mainline at Forest Gate Jn)
 

Class15

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The amount of demolition to create the space for quad tracking plus the sheer number of new structures would make this a staggering undertaking.....
NLL certainly has a congestion issue and a desperate shortage of paths, but this seems a lot of effort for unnecessary intercity services already replicated elsewhere and a bit of growth in Thames estuary intermodal traffic. Just sort Ely and EWR for a fraction of the cost and remove the intermodals from the NLL.
Most of the intermodals using the problematic sections (Gospel Oak to Kensal Green Jn) are going to London Gateway.
 

brad465

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Electrify, re-signal and increase line speed of the Dudding Hill lines, build interchanges at Harlesden and Neasden, then provide an Overground service from Richmond to Brent Cross West (building a new bay platform just off the freight lines).

(Braces for incoming fire)
 

Magdalia

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Better use of existing infrastructure.

My first priority would be for Welwyn-Sevenoaks to run all day and then for Crews Hill-Orpington all day with a new station for Crews Hill New Town.
 

Farigiraf

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What is happening to the people who use the Orpington to MML services currently?
There's 3 Luton - Orpington services each way in the morning peak and 1 Orpington - Luton in the evening peak. All the rest run to/from Kentish Town, Blackfriars or West Hampstead Thameslink. Nothing off-peak.
Either way the frequency on the MML section is high enough to make a change in the Thameslink Core viable to the very small amount of people who travel regularly from Orpington or the Catford Loop line to the MML.
 

Class15

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There's 3 Luton - Orpington services each way in the morning peak and 1 Orpington - Luton in the evening peak. All the rest run to/from Kentish Town, Blackfriars or West Hampstead Thameslink. Nothing off-peak.
Either way the frequency on the MML section is high enough to make a change in the Thameslink Core viable to the very small amount of people who travel regularly from Orpington or the Catford Loop line to the MML.
Okay, but what about those who are currently using the Luton Orpington trains that would be unable to board the Sutton and Rainham trains?

This was pointed out to me when I suggested running all day to Kentish Town only.
 

swt_passenger

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If you wanted to run Gatwick to Stansted (why?) via St Pancras you would rebuild the curves at Kentish Town and South Tottenham onto and off the GOBLIN/Suffragette line. Far simpler and probably quicker.

(Back in the day St P was IIRC suggested as the terminus for the Stansted Express rather than Liverpool St.)
Kings Cross surely? Using the then spare bores of both of the tunnels?
 

JonathanH

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Electrify, re-signal and increase line speed of the Dudding Hill lines, build interchanges at Harlesden and Neasden, then provide an Overground service from Richmond to Brent Cross West (building a new bay platform just off the freight lines).

(Braces for incoming fire)
Isn't the plan to run it to Hounslow, rather than Richmond, with passengers changing at Acton Central?
 

Farigiraf

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Okay, but what about those who are currently using the Luton Orpington trains that would be unable to board the Sutton and Rainham trains?

This was pointed out to me when I suggested running all day to Kentish Town only.
Why would someone be unable to board the Sutton/Rainham trains?
Between London and St Albans, the Sutton trains cover every stop, and north of St Albans there's a half-hourly service from Bedford as well.
The two reasons I could think of for not wanting to change trains going from the MML to Orpington are 1. overcrowding (rarely bad enough to the point of not being able to board on TL) and 2. accessibility (all Thameslink Core stations are staffed so wouldn't prevent a change of train).
 

Farigiraf

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Because they’re too busy…

Removing a quarter of the trains from several stations in the morning peak is possibly a bad idea.
Crowding on the MML slows will need to be compared with crowding the Hertford Loop to see which lines deserves the 2tph to London in that case.
ETCS allows 24tph in each direction through the Thameslink Core so there are still paths available, it just depends on how many trains are available to run any extra services. Can 717s run through the Thameslink core? If so, you could run the Crews Hill Thameslink service with 717s as IIRC there are some spares available.
 

cle

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I agree with removal of freight and simplification.

The best thing for the GEML, NLL and others would be some sort of dedicated freight line from Anglia (entry from both Felixstowe and Thames Riverside/Tilbury way) - meandering through the country to hit the MML somewhere south of Leicester and of course, get to Nuneaton another way also. Inland Rail in Australia - Shires-style!

I would rebuild Willesden Junction Low level as two islands (four faces) - with the inner ones turning back either additional Stratford services, or the many more Bakerloos to come, if extended to Lewisham/Hayes. I'm less concerned about Willesden Junction WCML platforms - but it's a good terminus for metro frequency.

WLL - someone invest in the platform zero at Clapham Junction - and up the WLL/SLL frequencies accordingly. 2tph WLL Overground run up to Watford P10 instead (semi fast still, they'd keep time north of Wembley) - and the Southern service goes away. I'm sure that path through South London and Windmill could be better used - even as a 1tph to Victoria extra.

Beyond LO - the GN Moorgate route needs to also be taken seriously as a metro. No outer London calls anymore (Potters Bar even goes 3-4 trains peak direction only) - but replaced with 6tph Welwyn GC and 6tph Hertford (2-3tph Stevenage) minimum. Clock-face - some could skip Harringay/Hornsey but otherwise all stations. CR2 doesn't need to go that way either, pointless.

I have lots more thoughts - obvious one is all TL services terminating at Kentish Town/WH run on to St Albans at least. I'd build a fast tunnel / dive-under running under St Albans too for MML services - enabling more use of all platforms for services to call / turn.

Watford Junction - bigger beast to wrangle but I'd try build another platform on the eastern side to give a bay, and make P10 up slow, with 9 as a middle bi-di road. 11 for other terminating services, and a new one p12 for Flyer.
 

Dave W

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I would hugely welcome an East-West rail option, seeing as how I live in Enfield and work in Barnet! The Superloops are actually quite good, I've found, and they are really well used in the peaks - SL1 certainly suffers from a lack of bus lanes on key congested sections (getting over the Great Cambridge Roundabout and then piddling about at the top of New Southgate.

My solution then is to demolish great swathes of precious housing across North London and install a 2 track heavy mainline which largely replicates the NLL, but 3 zones further out. Start at Meridian Water, use the old alignment to Edmonton Green (the entire place needs carpet bombing anyway) and then chop west, under Winchmore Hill before appearing around Southgate, cross the ECML with a new high level station at Oakleigh Park and then forge west over Totteridge Common. No one will be that bothered about it round there(!) - tack south west to the old retail park between M1 J2 and the A1, joining the MML and going to Brent Cross West, or continuing down the Dudding Hill Line. And since I'm building it, I'm having a station at the RAF Museum, close to my new fangled MML junction between Mill Hill Broadway and Hendon.

Now I just need to find someone with a couple of billion...
 

NCT

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MML Slows should be formalised into a metro - or at least a peak-hours metro. Brent Cross town and all the other current and planned developments needs it. Hertford Loop is also a metro with unused paths (4-hour peak service of 8tph should be possible). Removing one metro in order to turn another metro into a messy mixed operation makes no sense.
 

cle

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MML Slows should be formalised into a metro - or at least a peak-hours metro. Brent Cross town and all the other current and planned developments needs it. Hertford Loop is also a metro with unused paths (4-hour peak service of 8tph should be possible). Removing one metro in order to turn another metro into a messy mixed operation makes no sense.
Agree. MML Slows to St Albans, ECML Slows to WGC and Hertford should all be metro services neatly parallel to the Northern line branches, and Piccadilly line. That is a lot of radial coverage.
 

mr_jrt

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I agree with removal of freight and simplification.

The best thing for the GEML, NLL and others would be some sort of dedicated freight line from Anglia (entry from both Felixstowe and Thames Riverside/Tilbury way) - meandering through the country to hit the MML somewhere south of Leicester and of course, get to Nuneaton another way also. Inland Rail in Australia - Shires-style!

I would rebuild Willesden Junction Low level as two islands (four faces) - with the inner ones turning back either additional Stratford services, or the many more Bakerloos to come, if extended to Lewisham/Hayes. I'm less concerned about Willesden Junction WCML platforms - but it's a good terminus for metro frequency.

WLL - someone invest in the platform zero at Clapham Junction - and up the WLL/SLL frequencies accordingly. 2tph WLL Overground run up to Watford P10 instead (semi fast still, they'd keep time north of Wembley) - and the Southern service goes away. I'm sure that path through South London and Windmill could be better used - even as a 1tph to Victoria extra.

Beyond LO - the GN Moorgate route needs to also be taken seriously as a metro. No outer London calls anymore (Potters Bar even goes 3-4 trains peak direction only) - but replaced with 6tph Welwyn GC and 6tph Hertford (2-3tph Stevenage) minimum. Clock-face - some could skip Harringay/Hornsey but otherwise all stations. CR2 doesn't need to go that way either, pointless.

I have lots more thoughts - obvious one is all TL services terminating at Kentish Town/WH run on to St Albans at least. I'd build a fast tunnel / dive-under running under St Albans too for MML services - enabling more use of all platforms for services to call / turn.

Watford Junction - bigger beast to wrangle but I'd try build another platform on the eastern side to give a bay, and make P10 up slow, with 9 as a middle bi-di road. 11 for other terminating services, and a new one p12 for Flyer.
Wholeheartedly agree with moving freight out of London Z2/3. My ideal would be an orbital route paralleling the M25, but I'd settle for a deep freight tunnel from Ripple Lane to Wembley (and maybe on to Acton). Freight means no stations, no stations means you can go deeper, and electric freight means ventilation is easier; only real concern is gradients up to the yards.

Willesden Junction, yes. I want slow line WCML platforms, though, and platforms on the WLL lines. They're needed for making the most of all the interchange possibilities.

Clapham Junction, yes for 0. I wonder if there's a case for extending west from Clapham Junction, perhaps taking over the service via the Hounslow loop to simplify the SW routes, though what you would do at the end is a bit spicy.

MML fast line tunnel at St Albans is seemingly a no-brainer, but I suspect the real solution is HS2 to East Midlands Parkway to free up paths for more slower services, which wouldn't need the tunnel.

...and finally Watford Junction. Good ol' Watford Junction. In no particular order, ideally we would bury the Abbey Line deep (steps down to new platforms from the existing subway deep!) under its original alignment around the north of the current car park, run under Orphanage Road, then pop up to join the DC lines just north of Radlett Rd (or, if the gradient is too severe, then Radlett road converted into a bridge over the new, lower, railway).

Unlike St Albans, Watford Junction can benefit from HS2 capacity, so I'd like the 9/10 platform rebuilt as an island. Ideally we'd get another island built east of that one (so everything could shuffle over and the fast lines could have 4 platforms), but I suspect that's not possible, curvature-wise. I'd like platform 5 reinstated, with platforms 5&6 used for the fast services. Platforms 7&8 then become a northbound slow island, and platforms 9&10 become a southbound slow island, with 8&9 bidi for turning services from either direction, as required.
 

NCT

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Appreciate this is the speculative section and different people will have different ideas about speculation vs croyanista ...

If if we were to speculate within a context of what's plausible and likely ...
 

Mikey C

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As a simpler improvement, is there scope for additional shuttle trains between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, to give the Northern City Line a proper metro service?
 

cle

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MML fast line tunnel at St Albans is seemingly a no-brainer, but I suspect the real solution is HS2 to East Midlands Parkway to free up paths for more slower services, which wouldn't need the tunnel.
For the five minutes that plan was active, I did rather like it. Even a Hansacre -> Cross country route connection would only mop up Derby/Sheffield (2tph?) whereas EMP covers Nottingham too.

I think you would still have the same capacity (today - 4 to Leicester, 2 to Corby) south of EMP. So it would just be about stopping patterns or evening things out, knowing that Leicester would still need 1-2 fasts per hour. And many of those services would still have to terminate at Notts or Derby anyway!
 

InTheEastMids

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MML fast line tunnel at St Albans is seemingly a no-brainer, but I suspect the real solution is HS2 to East Midlands Parkway
What feels more likely (at least in most of our lifetimes) is a connection from HS2 to the XC route near Tamworth, which will be a quicker to Derby and Sheffield than the MML, but presumably much cheaper than full-fat HS2 in either of its now-cancelled incarnations.

I think you would still have the same capacity (today - 4 to Leicester, 2 to Corby) south of EMP. So it would just be about stopping patterns or evening things out, knowing that Leicester would still need 1-2 fasts per hour. And many of those services would still have to terminate at Notts or Derby anyway!
Agree with this, and looking at train lengths of EMR St Pancras departures, even in the evening peak, tells me that a lot of capacity can be added to EMR without increasing frequency.

If if we were to speculate within a context of what's plausible and likely ...
Everything that is in the "likely" box that needs capital investment will already be in a plan that's probably been kicking around for 10-20 years whilst governments have fiddled about with feasibility studies. The big opportunities seem like how to (1) proper connection from the Mildmay to Old Oak Common (2) If Crossrail 2 appears, to turn Dalston into a mini-Stratford, (3) West London Orbital, (4) regeneration of and around Willesden Junction (another potential mini-Stratford). Can't imagine we'll get these done without either moving a lot of train maintenance elsewhere, or basically having the depots as the ground floor of taller oversite development.
 

30907

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As a simpler improvement, is there scope for additional shuttle trains between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, to give the Northern City Line a proper metro service?
Reversing trains at FPK would be a challenge (though you could use Ferme Pk). If there is an off-peak demand for that section it would make more sense to go as far as Bowes Park (at least!).
 

MarkyT

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As a simpler improvement, is there scope for additional shuttle trains between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, to give the Northern City Line a proper metro service?
Not possible to reverse at Finsbury Park. Turnbacks at Drayton Park, while possible, are useless for interchange. Some additional short trips to Gordon Hill could work, especially with improved turnback arrangements there.
 

NCT

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Not sure there is much of a capacity need south of Finsbury Park (to be more precise south of Highbury) in isolation - any capacity need is really from the suburban 'home' locations. There will be 12tph if Hertford Loop and Welwyn need 12tph worth of capacity. In the off-peak, provided the long-standing 8tph aspiration gets delivered then that'll be good enough for south of Ally Pally.
 
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