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North Kent HS1 Services

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Bungle73

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I just watched an episode of Inside Out, and they had a piece on there about HS services and commuters complaining that their journey times have increased, and the HS service aren't any quicker. In the report they mentioned a proposal by Kent County Council that the HS service could be made quicker by one of the two services an hour missing out "a few of the smaller stations". Does anyone know which these "smaller stations" might be? To me it doesn't call at any small stations, but I'd support speeding up the service by missing a few out......as long as they still call at Sittingbourne! :p
 
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MidnightFlyer

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How about Chatham only in the Medway towns? InterCity trains back in BR times did. There surely isn't the need to stop 6 times in 20 minutes (and 3 times in 8 minutes) is there?
 

Bungle73

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Strood has connections to Maidstone and beyond; certain peak services already miss it out, however.
 

philjo

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I didn't watch it but I suspect that they are complaining that their overall journey is no quicker than it was before the HS1 services started? (rather than complaining about additional stops on the HS1 services themselves)
Those people who work near Victoria or London Bridge etc will now have many stops inserted in their previously limited-stop services to Victoria which make the HS1 services seem quicker before you add on the transfer time from Stratford/St Pancras across London.

For me it is much quicker as I come in to Kings Cross so HS1 saves me a trek across to Victoria (htough I only travel into Kent occasionally these days).
 

Bungle73

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I didn't watch it but I suspect that they are complaining that their overall journey is no quicker than it was before the HS1 services started? (rather than complaining about additional stops on the HS1 services themselves)
Those people who work near Victoria or London Bridge etc will now have many stops inserted in their previously limited-stop services to Victoria which make the HS1 services seem quicker before you add on the transfer time from Stratford/St Pancras across London.

For me it is much quicker as I come in to Kings Cross so HS1 saves me a trek across to Victoria (htough I only travel into Kent occasionally these days).
No, what I said was they are complaining that the regular services are slower, and the HS services aren't quicker than the old regular services. KCC propose cutting out some of the stations the HS services call at to speed up those services.
 

tbtc

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Those people who work near Victoria or London Bridge etc will now have many stops inserted in their previously limited-stop services to Victoria which make the HS1 services seem quicker before you add on the transfer time from Stratford/St Pancras across London

Which stations benefitted from these additional stops?
 

MidnightFlyer

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You people are just making things up now, aren't you.....?

Nope, quite a few peak workings now serve Meopham, Longfield, Sole Street and Farningham Rd en-route to Ramsgate etc. They used to be confined to Medway / Faversham terminators pre-December 2008.
 

brad465

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Rainham and Folkestone West could be cut.

I've always wanted Folkestone West off most services, for being close to the central station and in no real location for good use (eg buses, town centre being closer to central station)

Plus Rochester I'd say is the least used of the 3 main Medway stations, and is only 2 minutes on the train from Chatham station, so I'd imagine walking the distance is not too long either. ;)
 

TheJRB

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Well the truth is HS1 isn't dramatically faster than the fastest mainline trains could be or have been. Look at Ashford-Tonbridge which I started a thread on before. Stopping all trains at all those smaller stations makes HS1 look better than it really is. So for Waterloo East to Ashford which could be done within the hour as I understand it is only twenty minutes longer than St Pancras (and Waterloo is more convenient for some than St Pancras).

I'm sure much is the same for the North Kent services. If they reduced the number of stops on mainline services, it would be too much competition to HS1, but reducing the number of stops on HS1 services is probably a good idea.
 

Bungle73

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Nope, quite a few peak workings now serve Meopham, Longfield, Sole Street and Farningham Rd en-route to Ramsgate etc. They used to be confined to Medway / Faversham terminators pre-December 2008.

This thread is about HS services.

In any case those Victoria services only stop at Longfield and Meopham, and all day, and sometimes missed in the peak
 

MidnightFlyer

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This thread is about HS services.

In any case those Victoria services only stop at Longfield and Meopham, and all day, and sometimes missed in the peak

I was talking about the changes made to traditional services to make HS look good time-wise.
 

brad465

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Well the truth is HS1 isn't dramatically faster than the fastest mainline trains could be or have been.

I'm sure much is the same for the North Kent services. If they reduced the number of stops on mainline services, it would be too much competition to HS1, but reducing the number of stops on HS1 services is probably a good idea.

Stations between Gravesend and the Medway towns potentially saw increased services when the high speed came in, as no other services were cut (although the High-speed trains only call at Higham when engineering works are in force between Dartford and Northfleet). However, I'd say after Gillingham they are not as useful, considering the mainline trains have to serve Newington and Teynham, which have reduced trains now.

To counter the competition issue, I think they should bring the speed up from 125mph to 140mph between Stratford/Ebbsfleet and Ashford, (there's already catch-up time timetabled at Ashford) where this is worth it.
 

Bungle73

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I was talking about the changes made to traditional services to make HS look good time-wise.

Oh, sorry. It's still only the stations I mentioned that are stopped at now (although I don't know why since hardly anyone gets on or off there off-peak, and they have the stopping services anyway).
 

LE Greys

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It's always swings and roundabouts. How those same passengers would curse if they were going to Nottingham and HS1 was closed for the day. They would be stuck with the Victoria Line plus a slower service, adding a good hour to the journey. Even Bristol is easier to get to, without having to change at Oxford Circus or go all the way round through High Street Kensington. Kent was rather isolated from the rest of the network before HS1, now it is not.
 

embers25

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It's always swings and roundabouts. How those same passengers would curse if they were going to Nottingham and HS1 was closed for the day. They would be stuck with the Victoria Line plus a slower service, adding a good hour to the journey. Even Bristol is easier to get to, without having to change at Oxford Circus or go all the way round through High Street Kensington. Kent was rather isolated from the rest of the network before HS1, now it is not.

Having to go via Victoria is less convenient but does not add an hour. It's less than 5 minutes extra train journey and 15 minutes on the tube (allowing 5minutes to go up and down the escalators) so thats 20 minutes. Also Vic to Padd is 20 mins vs an unreliable 10minutes on the Circle/Hammersith and City Line from St Panc so again about 15 mins extra tops so thats hardly isolated!! Also if you factor in that the Vic train journey has been slowed down to make HS1 more appealing then actually all HS1 saves you is the tube journey. I agree tube journeys are a hassle but Vic to STP is direct and the change at Oxford Circus is a flat cross platform one so hardly challenging. It is sad that the only way HS1 can really be justified was by slowing the normal trains down or claiming tube journeys take longer than they actually do.
Before someone says, I agree Ashford is much quicker but that again is due to the dramatic slowdown of normal services. The only station with a big undoctored journey time saving is Gravesend.
 

paul1609

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I don't use the North kent Services but I would say that the adjustment of Main Line services via Ashford was probably right. Probably 90%+ of the Ashford and beyond off peak market has defected to HS1 .
It wouldn't be right to continue with the previous fast services they would be largely empty beyond Tonbridge. I rather imagine that the via Ashford HS services have probably abstracted considerable traffic from the north kent line beyond Faversham.
Certainly Canterbury West seems to be the main station now in that City.
 

embers25

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The trains are largely empty because they were reduced in frequency and slowed down so much that HS1 has become the only option. That doesn't make HS1 right or viable without such blatant "cheating".
Using that logic if Southern and FCC made all trains from Gatwick to London call at all stations thus adding 20+ minutes to the trip then they would be justified in removing most of them because the more expensive Gatwick Express would by default become the only viable option for most people and so these specially slowed down trains would be largely empty.
 

mole90

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Strood has connections to Maidstone and beyond; certain peak services already miss it out, however.

Strood still has the same number stopping as the HS services from Faversham (and peak from Broadstairs) which miss it are replaced by the peak HS service to/from Maidstone West.

Seems like most of the people that do the complaining about the services are the ones that want to be travelling to Victoria. I don't see why specifically the HS services should be changed for their benefit to the detriment of everyone else.
 

Bungle73

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Strood still has the same number stopping as the HS services from Faversham (and peak from Broadstairs) which miss it are replaced by the peak HS service to/from Maidstone West.
That's no good if people want to go Maidstone etc. from here.

Seems like most of the people that do the complaining about the services are the ones that want to be travelling to Victoria. I don't see why specifically the HS services should be changed for their benefit to the detriment of everyone else.
If I want to go to Victoria I'll go to Victoria, but sometimes it's more convenient to go to/from St. Pancras, and it would be nice if the journey time could be decreased seeing as I'm paying a premium to use those trains.
 

LE Greys

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Having to go via Victoria is less convenient but does not add an hour. It's less than 5 minutes extra train journey and 15 minutes on the tube (allowing 5minutes to go up and down the escalators) so thats 20 minutes. Also Vic to Padd is 20 mins vs an unreliable 10minutes on the Circle/Hammersith and City Line from St Panc so again about 15 mins extra tops so thats hardly isolated!! Also if you factor in that the Vic train journey has been slowed down to make HS1 more appealing then actually all HS1 saves you is the tube journey. I agree tube journeys are a hassle but Vic to STP is direct and the change at Oxford Circus is a flat cross platform one so hardly challenging. It is sad that the only way HS1 can really be justified was by slowing the normal trains down or claiming tube journeys take longer than they actually do.
Before someone says, I agree Ashford is much quicker but that again is due to the dramatic slowdown of normal services. The only station with a big undoctored journey time saving is Gravesend.

When they were building HS1, I went down there to have a look (when they used 4-CEPs). It may have been due to inconvenient connections at Charing Cross (I had to wait for half an hour) but it cost a full hour in time to Folkestone. In 2008, I was able to do Dover, Margate and Canterbury in one day, whilst barely able to do Folkestone in one day in 1997. A while later, I did Folkestone and Canterbury in one day plus huge waits for Tangmere at both and a walk to the harbour at Folkestone. The only real problem was getting from Ebbsfleet to anywhere else before the through service started, but I came back via Victoria because it was required line at the time, which was an absolute pain and took ages. Perhaps I'm comparing apples and oranges here, but east Kent benefits a lot from faster connections north of London.

Of course, a few HS1 services to Waterloo International would go down pretty well, but there probably isn't the capacity through Brixton.
 

Bungle73

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Of course, a few HS1 services to Waterloo International would go down pretty well, but there probably isn't the capacity through Brixton.

Would it be worth it? The trains would only spend a short time on HS1 before having to revert to standard lines again.
 

TheJRB

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Would it be worth it? The trains would only spend a short time on HS1 before having to revert to standard lines again.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much quicker an Ashford to Victoria service using HS1 then leaving at Fawkham Junction would be.
 

LE Greys

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Would it be worth it? The trains would only spend a short time on HS1 before having to revert to standard lines again.

I was thinking of sending a few peak-hours trains that way to make accessing the City easier (although the Central Line can get people in from Stratford) then reverting to St Pancras only for the off-peak operation. None would go that way at weekends.
 

notadriver

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Stations between Gravesend and the Medway towns potentially saw increased services when the high speed came in, as no other services were cut (although the High-speed trains only call at Higham when engineering works are in force between Dartford and Northfleet). However, I'd say after Gillingham they are not as useful, considering the mainline trains have to serve Newington and Teynham, which have reduced trains now.

To counter the competition issue, I think they should bring the speed up from 125mph to 140mph between Stratford/Ebbsfleet and Ashford, (there's already catch-up time timetabled at Ashford) where this is worth it.

In my experience trains already run at 140 mph on that section anyway. The time saved between running at 125 or 140 is minimal over that distance. Personally think the trains need more power - leaving Stratford heading east it takes around 8 minutes to reach top speed. There is also congestion around Ashford and the line speed from there to Canterbury and Ramsgate is only 70. Raising it to 90 would be useful.
 

ji459

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In the report they mentioned a proposal by Kent County Council that the HS service could be made quicker by one of the two services an hour missing out "a few of the smaller stations". Does anyone know which these "smaller stations" might be?

I presume the report referred to is the "Rail Action Plan for Kent" that was presented to the Transport Minister in May. The report doesn't seem to specify the stations in question, but page 57 of the PDF version (internal page number 55) might be useful. There's more information on KCC's proposals in general here.
 

Mike C

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In my experience trains already run at 140 mph on that section anyway. The time saved between running at 125 or 140 is minimal over that distance. Personally think the trains need more power - leaving Stratford heading east it takes around 8 minutes to reach top speed. There is also congestion around Ashford and the line speed from there to Canterbury and Ramsgate is only 70. Raising it to 90 would be useful.

Our trains run at 230 in that area (certainly at the tunnel exit near Rainham we do), so I presume the SouthEastern trains can run at their full speed from there also. However, I agree they need more power - in passing conversations in the past with SouthEastern drivers, I've heard they manage 200 fine, but 225 can be a struggle at times.
 
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