North Filton / Brabazon

[Annetts key]

Ideally yes, but you've got the curvature and the subway under the tracks where you'd want them to go. A buildout might be a better option for Platform 3 or 5.

However the bigger issue is that Crosscountry tend to go across to Platforms 3-6 when they're primarily running on the main lines which feed platforms 7-12 because Barton Hill Depot can't access 7 and higher. That and the fact you can't do parallel moves from the low-numbered side and the Filton Mains over Bristol East Jn.

Not quite sure what you are getting at.
Nearly the whole of Temple Meads station is built on a lot of arches. That's why the incline exists. I've explored most of this "underground" area.

One problem with having points / crossovers between platforms 3 and 4, or 5 and 6, or any of the others, is that would reduce the available length of the platform for trains.

Under the old layout (before Bristol East Junction was remodelled) occasionally it was possible to see five parallel train movements.

Part of the problem is the poor way that the platforms are allocated for trains. As an example, one train I used to catch quite often from platform 4 (heading for W-s-M) was often subject to platform alteration or delay because just a few minutes earlier an up direction train was also booked to use this platform, so if this train was late...

If a timetable includes any significant number of services that come from/go to the south-west which are not through services, it maybe worthwhile bringing platform 2 back into use as a passenger line. And/or putting the points back in so that platform 13 has access to the west again.

 

[brad465]

Looking at that NR release, the Morpeth board with a 50mph advance warning was a surprise, as, assuming that is on the section where North Filton will be, I didn't think that currently freight only line was clear for >50mph?

 

[zwk500]

Not quite sure what you are getting at.
Nearly the whole of Temple Meads station is built on a lot of arches. That's why the incline exists. I've explored most of this "underground" area.

The curvature on the platforms is severe and the ability to locate crossovers on them is likely to be limited without extreme derogation from the standards.

The reference to the subway is that it's a specific area which might be more constrained for placing complicated track on top of given what's below it, but I'm not an engineer so maybe it's not.

One problem with having points / crossovers between platforms 3 and 4, or 5 and 6, or any of the others, is that would reduce the available length of the platform for trains.

Agreed. Hence the suggestion of a buildout (as per Clapham Junction platforms 1/2) which would be able to preserve a reasonable length of the platform being retained for through movements, at the cost of possible reduced length for the new bay.

Under the old layout (before Bristol East Junction was remodelled) occasionally it was possible to see five parallel train movements.

Today it's possible to see six . However if a train is moving from Platform 3 to the Up Filton Main a train cannot move from the Down Filton Main to Platform 5-8 (the 'right-handed' movements). This is a particular issue for Crosscountry, because their depot can only access platforms 1,3-6 and they often take sets in and out of service at Bristol. The alternative would be for XC to shunt more sets via the West end.

The 'left-handed' movements of the higher-numbered platforms to the Filton Relief lines are able to take place in parallel.

Part of the problem is the poor way that the platforms are allocated for trains.

True, although this is partly a result of the fact that at one end of the station the tracks are in 3 pairs of alternate direction, and at the other there is 1 down track and 2 up tracks next to each other. It's hard to minimise crossing movements at either end.

If a timetable includes any significant number of services that come from/go to the south-west which are not through services, it maybe worthwhile bringing platform 2 back into use as a passenger line. And/or putting the points back in so that platform 13 has access to the west again.

Indeed. Making the Up Relief reversible from Parson Street to Bristol Temple Meads would also be worth considering. Potentially also combined with moving the junction at Parson Street west of the station.

 

[The exile]

. However if a train is moving from Platform 3 to the Up Filton Main a train cannot move from the Down Filton Main to Platform 5-8 (the 'right-handed' movements). This is a particular issue for Crosscountry, because their depot can only access platforms 1,3-6 and they often take sets in and out of service at Bristol. The alternative would be for XC to shunt more sets via the West end.

Shame Malago Vale was dispensed with, really.

 

[zwk500]

Shame Malago Vale was dispensed with, really.

Maybe. However it would be possible to swap Barton Hill to focus on the units allocated to services primarily using the Filton Reliefs (Cardiff-West Country and Bristol suburban services), and give XC space in St Philip's Marsh or even repurpose some of the space at Bristol East Depot yard.

 

[Annetts key]

Looking at that NR release, the Morpeth board with a 50mph advance warning was a surprise, as, assuming that is on the section where North Filton will be, I didn't think that currently freight only line was clear for >50mph?

Don't forget that the Filton West Junction to Hallen Marsh Junction lines were completely relaid ready for the coal traffic back in 1992. They have a linespeed of 60MPH.

The curvature on the platforms is severe and the ability to locate crossovers on them is likely to be limited without extreme derogation from the standards.

Yes.

Today it's possible to see six . However if a train is moving from Platform 3 to the Up Filton Main a train cannot move from the Down Filton Main to Platform 5-8 (the 'right-handed' movements).

That's partly due to Network Rail wanting to keep the number of points to a minium (allegedly the argument was less points, less to go wrong, never mind that less points means more problems if there is no alternative route). The signallers wanted more cross-overs for more flexibility. However, I don't know the specifics of what the signallers wanted, what was not included or what was included.

True, although this is partly a result of the fact that at one end of the station the tracks are in 3 pairs of alternate direction, and at the other there is 1 down track and 2 up tracks next to each other. It's hard to minimise crossing movements at either end.

Keep in mind that between Bedminster and Temple Meads, the Up Main is bi-directional.

Indeed. Making the Up Relief reversible from Parson Street to Bristol Temple Meads would also be worth considering. Potentially also combined with moving the junction at Parson Street west of the station.

If/when funding became/becomes available, the plan is to reinstate the Down Relief line. The Up Relief does have some provision for shunting moves in the down direction, as these were provided for moves to the now removed Malago Vale carriage cleaning sidings / depot. Currently of no use for passenger trains, but if the Down Relief line was reinstated, said route could be upgraded to main aspects. And maybe made bi-directional all the way to Parson Street Junction.

Shame Malago Vale was dispensed with, really.

True. But this is the problem with selling off railway land. Once gone...

 

[zwk500]

That's partly due to Network Rail wanting to keep the number of points to a minium (allegedly the argument was less points, less to go wrong, never mind that less points means more problems if there is no alternative route). The signallers wanted more cross-overs for more flexibility. However, I don't know the specifics of what the signallers wanted, what was not included or what was included.

The physical constraints of the site also play a part here. More crossovers means moving signals further apart. But yes, there's a balance between more flexibility and higher maintenance requirements.

Keep in mind that between Bedminster and Temple Meads, the Up Main is bi-directional.

It is and it's used often. But the Up Relief being bi di all the way to Parson Street would allow a Portoshead train to completely avoid the mains.

If/when funding became/becomes available, the plan is to reinstate the Down Relief line. The Up Relief does have some provision for shunting moves in the down direction, as these were provided for moves to the now removed Malago Vale carriage cleaning sidings / depot. Currently of no use for passenger trains, but if the Down Relief line was reinstated, said route could be upgraded to main aspects. And maybe made bi-directional all the way to Parson Street Junction.

If that funding is available, I would advocate for electrification or train lengthening before reinstating the Down Relief tbh.

 

[Snow1964]

Keep in mind that between Bedminster and Temple Meads, the Up Main is bi-directional.

If/when funding became/becomes available, the plan is to reinstate the Down Relief line. The Up Relief does have some provision for shunting moves in the down direction, as these were provided for moves to the now removed Malago Vale carriage cleaning sidings / depot. Currently of no use for passenger trains, but if the Down Relief line was reinstated, said route could be upgraded to main aspects. And maybe made bi-directional all the way to Parson Street Junction.

This section was heavily rebuilt during 1930s as part of a quadrupling. The two intermediate stations both had long islands which are all over 200m long, (although extra length is partly weed covered these days).

From a passenger perspective it is useful to have one island for south west services and other towards Bristol. Easy to join a train either side of island, but any late notice platform swaps to other island is not practical in a world of allowing for slow walkers and mobility impaired.

Whilst there is logic in just 3 (of the former 4) tracks, some bidirectional. , Is this practical where passengers will potentially be waiting on wrong island platform on a section with 2 intermediate stations, where platform assistance is non existent at both.

I would argue the 3 track with bi directional is suitable for many locations, but completely wrong where there are 2 intermediate stations and very slow walking routes between platforms for those waiting to join. Especially as the bi-di is likely to be used last minute when trains are running late.

I would swap the southbound main and relief, so that trains to Portishead don't conflict as much, and arrange the junction so the southbound main trains can pass outside any train held waiting to join the branch.

 

[John R]

I would swap the southbound main and relief, so that trains to Portishead don't conflict as much, and arrange the junction so the southbound main trains can pass outside any train held waiting to join the branch.

Agree. I've always thought that would be the most obvious arrangement, and with hopefully a relatively fast merge of the relief back onto the main once south west of Parson St.

 

[jazzy]

Bristol Brabazon it is then...

New Bristol rail station named 'Bristol Brabazon'

The station, which will serve a new arena, is one of five opening in the area in the coming years.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

Bristol Brabazon it is then...

New Bristol rail station named 'Bristol Brabazon'

The station, which will serve a new arena, is one of five opening in the area in the coming years.

www.bbc.co.uk

No doubt carefully chosen so that on ticket buying sites, anyone typing in Bristol sees it first (because they are shown alphabetically), and those little used, minor wayside Halts (Bristol Parkway, and Bristol Temple Meads) appear after it in alphabetical list.

Name chosen with customer convenience in mind ?

 

[Annetts key]

Bristol Brabazon it is then...

New Bristol rail station named 'Bristol Brabazon'

The station, which will serve a new arena, is one of five opening in the area in the coming years.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not really surprising as the former BAC aircraft crossing near to where this new station is being built was also known as Brabazon crossing. Near here there also used to be a temporary signal box (well, Portakabin) called Brabazon Crossing Box (details in the book The Avonmouth Line History and Working by P.D. Rendall).

 

[brad465]

It says one of five new stations in the area. What's the fifth one (assuming the other four are Henbury, Bristol Brabazon, Pill and Portishead)?

 

[rwblake]

No doubt carefully chosen so that on ticket buying sites, anyone typing in Bristol sees it first (because they are shown alphabetically), and those little used, minor wayside Halts (Bristol Parkway, and Bristol Temple Meads) appear after it in alphabetical list.

Name chosen with customer convenience in mind ?

On both TrainSplit and Trainline, typing "bristol" into the search yields temple meads before parkway. It isn't alphabetical.

 

[Annetts key]

It says one of five new stations in the area. What's the fifth one (assuming the other four are Henbury, Bristol Brabazon, Pill and Portishead)?

Charfield maybe?

 

[LUYMun]

Why the need to prefix Bristol in the station's name? Brabazon itself sounded decent.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Why the need to prefix Bristol in the station's name? Brabazon itself sounded decent.

North Filton sounded even better. At least non-aircraft type people would know where it was.

 

[swt_passenger]

North Filton sounded even better. At least non-aircraft type people would know where it was.

And it wouldn’t be named after what is usually thought of as a complete failure. I don’t understand the reasoning to name the place after a prototype.

 

[John R]

And it wouldn’t be named after what is usually thought of as a complete failure. I don’t understand the reasoning to name the place after a prototype.

The whole development is called Brabazon.

 

[Farigiraf]

Bristol Brabazon it is then...

New Bristol rail station named 'Bristol Brabazon'

The station, which will serve a new arena, is one of five opening in the area in the coming years.

www.bbc.co.uk

I get the logic, it's in Bristol after all. In German cities, every station has the city's name at the start and it works very well. But without adding Bristol to the start of Stapleton Road, Lawrence Hill, Ashley Down and Filton Abbey Wood it'll be a little out of place. In a growing recent trend across the country, another station name has been chosen based on 'clickability' (i.e. how well it sounds in news articles and gatherings) rather than what would actually be a sensible name for the station. See 'Magor and Undy Walkway' (walkway???) and 'Okehampton Interchange' (interchange only to personal cars)

 

[swt_passenger]

The whole development is called Brabazon.

In writing the above I did mean it was weird to name ‘the place’ Brabazon, as well…

 

[contrex]

"Brabazon"... when I worked for the Ordnance Survey in Fishponds in 1972 I turned up in the office car park, one day, on a shabby old BSA 500cc sidecar outfit with leaky silencers. The boss, a Welshman, said it sounded like 'the bloody Brabazon comin' over'. I do not have high hopes for this scheme.

 

[Annetts key]

I get the logic, it's in Bristol after all. In German cities, every station has the city's name at the start and it works very well. But without adding Bristol to the start of Stapleton Road, Lawrence Hill, Ashley Down and Filton Abbey Wood it'll be a little out of place. In a growing recent trend across the country, another station name has been chosen based on 'clickability' (i.e. how well it sounds in news articles and gatherings) rather than what would actually be a sensible name for the station. See 'Magor and Undy Walkway' (walkway???) and 'Okehampton Interchange' (interchange only to personal cars)

Actually it's in the area of South Gloucestershire. It comes under South Gloucestershire Council. It's not actually in the city of Bristol...

The same goes Bristol Parkway! It's also comes under South Gloucestershire Council.

 

[fgwrich]

Actually it's in the area of South Gloucestershire. It comes under South Gloucestershire Council. It's not actually in the city of Bristol...

The same goes Bristol Parkway! It's also comes under South Gloucestershire Council.

I did think that, it’s a little like Reading Green Park which has footings in the Borough of Wokingham, Reading and West Berkshire council areas.

Anyway good to see further progress with the scheme.

 

[Noddy]

I get the logic, it's in Bristol after all. In German cities, every station has the city's name at the start and it works very well. But without adding Bristol to the start of Stapleton Road, Lawrence Hill, Ashley Down and Filton Abbey Wood it'll be a little out of place. In a growing recent trend across the country, another station name has been chosen based on 'clickability' (i.e. how well it sounds in news articles and gatherings) rather than what would actually be a sensible name for the station. See 'Magor and Undy Walkway' (walkway???) and 'Okehampton Interchange' (interchange only to personal cars)

Actually it's in the area of South Gloucestershire. It comes under South Gloucestershire Council. It's not actually in the city of Bristol...

Though one could say its named after Bristol (the aircraft manufacturer) Brabazon (the aircraft).

 

[PTR 444]

Bristol Brabazon makes sense as a station name if it is intended to be served by Intercity and long-distance trains from outside Bristol, but as a local station served by trains which only serve stations within Bristol, then just “Brabazon” would make more sense.

 

[Magdalia]

The whole development is called Brabazon.

In particular the New Towns Taskforce recommended a new town at Brabazon see here:

New Towns Taskforce: Report to government

www.gov.uk

Brabazon and the West Innovation Arc​

The new town proposal in South Gloucestershire, within the West of England Mayoral Combined Authority (WECA) geography, is a group of sites across an arc, with a high-density core on the former Filton Airfield, known as Brabazon, offering the earliest phase of delivery. Taking advantage of its proximity to Bristol and utilising brownfield land, this new town is an opportunity to build over 40,000 new homes in one of the most productive areas in the country, creating a new connected community in the West of England.

The West Innovation Arc sits north of Bristol and offers rapid delivery with over 300 homes already built on the Brabazon site. This new town would capitalise on existing overseas investment, as YTL, a Malaysian infrastructure conglomerate, have already invested £400 million in the site, and the YTL Group plan to invest £4 billion across the UK in the next five years, with Brabazon as their flagship project. This new town would also further maximise value for money of the recently announced £752 million investment to support public transport and active travel in the West of England.

This would be a new town across three urban centres: Brabazon, Bristol Parkway station, and the Bristol and Bath Science Park. These would be linked by public transport and walking and cycling routes, building on the shared identity and history of this area and boosting the total number of homes to support economic growth.

 

[Krokodil]

I don’t understand the reasoning to name the place after a prototype.

The arena will be inside the hangar built specifically to build the Brabazon so the connection is pretty strong. Once you've exhausted "Concorde", "Charlton" [the village demolished to extend the runway] "Pegasus", "Merlin" and "Olympus" how many possible names are left? "Concorde" branding in particular has been used to death in South Gloucestershire.

The Brabazon itself might have been a failure but it laid the groundwork for more successful airliners like the Britannia.

 

[contrex]

Though one could say its named after Bristol (the aircraft manufacturer) Brabazon (the aircraft).

... which was in turn named after the Brabazon Committee whose chair was the aviation pioneer Lieutenant Colonel John Theodore Cuthbert Moore-Brabazon, 1st Baron Brabazon of Tara, GBE, MC, PC, HonFRPS...

 

[Ashley Hill]

Charlton" [the village demolished to extend the runway

It seems Brabazon has been chosen as a name which acknowledges the history of the area and the station can be claimed as “new”, unlike North Filton could be considered a reopening.
If a new town is being considered then Charlton would fit both honouring the history of the area and be claimed as a new station.