North East Wales transport task force results

[LNW-GW Joint]

A Chester-Birmingham service via Crewe and Stafford is a very different kettle of fish to a Holyhead-Birmingham service via the same route. Is a service that calls only at Chester-Crewe-Wolverhampton-Birmingham NS viable?

But again your timings don't seem to tie-in with the reality of the timetable. If you take the xx:35 VT from Chester, NRE offers the x1:22 LM service as a connection at Crewe - with typical journey times of 1h43 - 20 mins longer than you claimed.

That's because they discount less than 10min connections at Crewe.

 

[transmanche]

That's because they discount less than 10min connections at Crewe.

So even less of a fair comparison, as you're including invalid connections...

 

[Welshman]

A Chester-Birmingham service via Crewe and Stafford is a very different kettle of fish to a Holyhead-Birmingham service via the same route. Is a service that calls only at Chester-Crewe-Wolverhampton-Birmingham NS viable?

But again your timings don't seem to tie-in with the reality of the timetable. If you take the xx:35 VT from Chester, NRE offers the x1:22 LM service as a connection at Crewe - with typical journey times of 1h43 - 20 mins longer than you claimed.

The 00.35 VTs from Chester are scheduled to arrive in platform 6 at Crewe at 00.54.
The next train to Birmingham is the 01.01 VT from platform 5, arriving New St at 01.55.

The connection involves crossing the bridge to platform 5 - easily done in 7 minutes.

As has been stated, the reason this connection is not shown in NRE is because the recommended changing time at Crewe is 10 minutes - hence it directs you to the slower LM train following.

But I have often made this shorter connection without even breaking into a sweat.
The same reduction works for stations from Holyhead on the Virgin services too, as these are simply the 00.35 from Chester, starting back at Holyhead.

This may use "invalid" connections at Crewe, but these are achievable on most occasions, especially as sometimes the ongoing VT to Birmingham, having started back at Edinburgh or Glasgow, is a few minutes late. And even if the connection is missed, you simply wait for the following LM service, which still gets into New St quicker than meandering round Wrexham and Shrewsbury!

 

[transmanche]

As has been stated, the reason this connection is not shown in NRE is because the recommended changing time at Crewe is 10 minutes - hence it directs you to the slower LM train following.

Which is exactly what most passengers will do.

And even if the connection is missed, you simply wait for the following LM service, which still gets into New St quicker than meandering round Wrexham and Shrewsbury!

And after the speed improvements are made, there will be less 'meandering'.

That still doesn't answer the point that you're comparing ab express VT service from Crewe (which normally calls only Wolverhampton en route) with the ATW service. Does anyone really think there's a market for a service with a Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Colwyn Bay-Rhyl-Chester-Crewe-Wolverhampton-Birmingham NS calling pattern? To make it pay it'll need to make extra stops, which reduces any time advantage of going via Crewe.

If you're going to have limited stops after Chester, why not have it as a second hourly services on the Chester-Shrewsbury line, running express calling only at Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton? It doesn't have to go via Crewe!

 

[Welshman]

Does anyone really think there's a market for a service with a Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Colwyn Bay-Rhyl-Chester-Crewe-Wolverhampton-Birmingham NS calling pattern? To make it pay it'll need to make extra stops, which reduces any time advantage of going via Crewe.

No, I'm not saying that! I'm simply saying that when we go from Rhyl to Birmingham we find it quicker to use an "invalid" connection at Crewe, rather than the through ATW service via Shrewsbury, and do so even when cheaper Club 55 tickets are available from ATW via Shrewsbury.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Which is exactly what most passengers will do.

And after the speed improvements are made, there will be less 'meandering'.

That still doesn't answer the point that you're comparing ab express VT service from Crewe (which normally calls only Wolverhampton en route) with the ATW service. Does anyone really think there's a market for a service with a Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Colwyn Bay-Rhyl-Chester-Crewe-Wolverhampton-Birmingham NS calling pattern? To make it pay it'll need to make extra stops, which reduces any time advantage of going via Crewe.

If you're going to have limited stops after Chester, why not have it as a second hourly services on the Chester-Shrewsbury line, running express calling only at Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton? It doesn't have to go via Crewe!

They only go via Wrexham because the SRA was obsessed by tidy franchise boundaries and reducing multiple TOCs on lines as far as possible. It's nothing to do with passenger demand/customer focus/understanding of markets. There was no problem with N Wales to Brum trains going via Stafford for the 160 previous years. The current pattern is about trying to make franchising work version 3 or whatever it was in 2002.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Who said it would have to be operated by 175s?

Well, given that you are suggesting keeping the Holyhead - Birmingham train that has to be formed of 158s there will be very few 158s available once two more are locked into ERTMS-only diagrams when the Cambrian main line finally goes hourly. If you take every 158 in Wales you might just manage it, but you if you were to portion-work the Holyhead-Cardiff it is 150s or 175s.

The two are not mutually incompatible. Bi-modes are going to be a fact of UK railway life. So why not a bi-mode AGC-type train

Only DaFT are ordering bi-modes. The ROSCOs don't seem to want to risk diesel units at all. Therefore, while I think a bi-mode version of a 158 would be far more sensible than DaFT's Intercity bi-modes (the Intercity routes a far more likely to be wired than regional express) I doubt we'll get any.

If you're going to have limited stops after Chester, why not have it as a second hourly services on the Chester-Shrewsbury line, running express calling only at Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton? It doesn't have to go via Crewe!

I've been told on this fourm before that if you tried additional ATW services on the Shrewsbury to Birmingham route you wouldn't get them past Wolverhampton. You need an existing service between Wolverhapton and Birmingham that you can extend to Wales.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've been told on this fourm before that if you tried additional ATW services on the Shrewsbury to Birmingham route you wouldn't get them past Wolverhampton. You need an existing service between Wolverhapton and Birmingham that you can extend to Wales.

Though there will be a path up for grabs when Virgin connects up the Euston-Birmingham and Birmingham-Scotland trains in December (ie no Euston-Wolverhampton terminator).
But if that path goes to anyone other than LM I would be surprised.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well, given that you are suggesting keeping the Holyhead - Birmingham train that has to be formed of 158s there will be very few 158s available once two more are locked into ERTMS-only diagrams when the Cambrian main line finally goes hourly. If you take every 158 in Wales you might just manage it, but you if you were to portion-work the Holyhead-Cardiff it is 150s or 175s.

A set of 158s was diverted to running between Shrewsbury & Wrexham, then returning all stations to Shrewsbury to cater for local traffic when Gerald was routed via Wrexham in the morning. This then joins up with the set from North Wales diverted via Crewe to Birmingham.

As for spare 158s 4 sets of two car replaced two sets of 3 car 175s on the Chester to Manchester run early morning to avoid chronic overcrowding.

As an aside a three times an hour bus service starts tomorrow from Cardiff Central bus park to Cardiff Airport, The Minister for rail/bus has decided to use refurbished stock that was destined for Traws Cambria services. The stock is of similar style Hi Fi etc as used on the five times an hour Wrexham to Chester rail station run.

 

[The Informer]

If you work for NR why don't you get a cab ride, can you get a cab pass for observing the track?, I will take you if you have the correct documentation. PM me if you are interested.

Thanks for the offer but i dont like the smell of egg sandwiches, i'd rather walk!

 

[emoaconr]

As the incumbent operator of services on the Halton Curve, should "normal" services be resumed on that line (that may terminate in North Wales), would they be required to be operated by Northern?

 

[TDK]

Thanks for the offer but i dont like the smell of egg sandwiches, i'd rather walk!

Hahaha - the good old smell of a tread braked train

 

[Cheshire Rover]

As the incumbent operator of services on the Halton Curve, should "normal" services be resumed on that line (that may terminate in North Wales), would they be required to be operated by Northern?

I know Merseyrail are keen on the Curve being reopened.

 

[merlodlliw]

from today's local Daily Post, reporter Steve Bagnall

North Wales rail saga: Improvements to line still essential for economy despite delay

The North Wales Regional Transport Consortium has said a £36m upgrade to a north east Wales rail line was essential for the future of the North Wales economy after it was indefinitely delayed.

Taith, which represents all North Wales councils on transport issues, insisted it had not been consulted over Welsh Government transport minister Edwina Hart’s decision to review the “processes and decision making” behind the scheme.

Taith chiefs said the £36m project to redouble the line between Wrexham and Chester was essential and are now awaiting further announcements from Ms Hart. It was announced by Carl Sargeant the Welsh Government transport minister at the time, in March 2012, and was set to get underway.

But Ms Hart’s recent bombshell announcement has thrown the entire scheme into doubt with Network Rail confirming they have been asked to look at more “cost effective” options, with no start date in sight.

Pressure has been growing on the minister, from North Wales AMs, to come clean after concerns were raised cash for the north east Wales scheme is being spent on rail projects down south including at Ebbw Vale and Cardiff Airport.

There were also fears, if the Wrexham to Chester upgrade does not go-ahead to alleviate the bottle-necked line, it could throw into doubt the wider proposals for the electrification of the North Wales rail network, which the Department of Transport is developing a business case for.

Welsh Secretary David Jones was annoyed at the Wrexham to Chester line upgrade delay and said the Welsh Government had to show commitment.

The scheme is seen as a vital component to ensure the North Wales economy is not left behind in the future by antiquated transport links.

Chairman of Taith, councillor Mike Priestley, said: “The project to increase capacity and line speed between Wrexham and Saltney Junction is hugely important to North Wales.

“Not only does the scheme provide opportunities for faster journeys between North and South Wales, but is gives additional line capacity that is essential for service improvements that could include new stations, additional trains between Wrexham and Chester and proposals for direct services from Wrexham to Manchester and South Liverpool.

“Taith has promoted and supported the project for a number of years. These potential additional services have been identified, in the recently completed North East Wales Integrated Transport Study, as being essential to support economic growth in North East Wales.”

The Welsh Government has been unable to comment further, but it is expected to make a further announcement after the summer recess

.

 

[Rhydgaled]

There's now a north Wales rail modernisation Task Force too apparently. I wonder if this one will point out that, to make the case for electrification, the north Wales coast line service will probably need to stop reversing at Chester to head for Cardiff/Birmingham. Unless you also wire the marches line and to Birmingham (in which case what do you do with the Cambrian?) of course.

 

[anthony263]

There was a suggestion that the cambrian could be wired with the argument being that it would allow through services beyond Shrewsbury to be retained.

EMU's could most certainly further improve reliability on the route although I do think the class 158's do a good job

 

[merlodlliw]

There's now a north Wales rail modernisation Task Force too apparently. I wonder if this one will point out that, to make the case for electrification, the north Wales coast line service will probably need to stop reversing at Chester to head for Cardiff/Birmingham. Unless you also wire the marches line and to Birmingham (in which case what do you do with the Cambrian?) of course.

I mentioned this new task force about a month ago,I dont have a lot of faith in it yet, this task force was born out of Edwina Harts dislike of the four Welsh travel consortia,who are soon to go it would seem.

Anyhow nothing will occur until the Wrexham redouble is sorted out,this seems to drag on and on, only yesterday a colleague received a letter from his AM which stated the latest news from Minister Edwina Hart,not encouraging

" I have been clear with Network Rail that the scheme must provide the same benefits as the original plan and be delivered by spring 2015 to the revised lower budget. The scheme details will be published on the web site in due course"

A contact informs me Network Rails latest costing for the redouble is well over budget by a large amount.

 

[jones_bangor]

I mentioned this new task force about a month ago,I dont have a lot of faith in it yet, this task force was born out of Edwina Harts dislike of the four Welsh travel consortia,who are soon to go it would seem.

Anyhow nothing will occur until the Wrexham redouble is sorted out,this seems to drag on and on, only yesterday a colleague received a letter from his AM which stated the latest news from Minister Edwina Hart,not encouraging


A contact informs me Network Rails latest costing for the redouble is well over budget by a large amount.

Sounds ominous. Something's going to have to give there.