North East corridor versus WCML

[lukemc1980]

Hi,

As most of you know, the rail route in the USA with the closest resemblance to our WCML is the North East Corridor Washington DC - New York - Boston. A few questions of how the two routes compare - we know that both are "classic" alignments (i.e. not dedicated new build High Speed alignments) and both see tilting trainsets in operation (Virgin Pendolino for WCML and Amtrak Acela for NEC). I have read that the maximum speed attained by the Acela in regular service use on the NEC is higher than for the Pendolino on the WCML - 150mph but as far as the average speed/journey times are concerned the Pendolino is faster - is this true? I have read the the Acela is restricted to 75mph in some places especially south of New York is this due to the curvature of the track? And considering both are quite curved alignments, why can the NEC handle >125mph running in some areas whereas the WCML cannot - does the NEC have in cab signalling which was the reason the Pendolinos could not run at design speed on the WCML? Also what are the service frequency levels on the North East Corridor e.g. between NYC and Boston/Washington DC - is Amtrak on this route as frequent as Virgin on WCML? And also what are the fares like on this route say in comparison to Virgin on the WCML - are they similar as I did hear that long distance rail travel in the USA is expensive by international standards but I also know that rail travel here is too at least as far as "walk on" fares are concerned but advance purchase can be a lot cheaper. And finally - a question about Amtraks punctuality - it seems that the North East Corridor is the only Amtrak route where punctuality is at UK or European levels, looking at Amtraks punctuality statistics on many routes (except NEC) seem to be less than 70pc on time - and it looks like thier definition of late running is 30 minutes on most routes compared with 10 minutes here - does anyone know why thier punctuality can be so low?

Luke

 

[Swift-Deere]

I guess americans don't take rail travel too seriusly so arnt bothered about late trains

 

[Drsatan]

From what I've read, the Acela is business & first class only, but apparently the seats are very comfortable and you get breakfast, lunch or dinner thrown in in first class. It's expensive however - a business class single from Boston to Washington DC leaving at 7am tomorrow would be $196 (£118.20 using today's exchange rate) for a six hour journey. The distance between Boston & Washington is approximately 452.7 miles, which in the UK would get you from London to Glasgow & then a bit further.

The Acela is a tilting train, although it's not allowed to tilt on sections of track which Amtrak doesn't own. For about 12 miles it can travel at its top speed of about 150mph although for most of the time it's limited to 135mph, 110 mph or even 80mph. The NEC (NorthEast Corridor) uses cab-signalling for its entire length.

It really does travel at 150mph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da5Q_v5zYy4

 

[jamesontheroad]

I have read that the maximum speed attained by the Acela in regular service use on the NEC is higher than for the Pendolino on the WCML - 150mph but as far as the average speed/journey times are concerned the Pendolino is faster - is this true?

Yes, but only for short sections of the overall route. In fact the Acela's average speed is nearer 80mph overall, so on average it's not much faster than the fastest passenger trains operating in the States in the 1960s. The problem isn't just the track, some of the catenary wire infrastructure dates from the 1930s.

I have read the the Acela is restricted to 75mph in some places especially south of New York is this due to the curvature of the track? And considering both are quite curved alignments, why can the NEC handle >125mph running in some areas whereas the WCML cannot - does the NEC have in cab signalling which was the reason the Pendolinos could not run at design speed on the WCML?

No, I don't believe the Acelas have (operational) in-cab signalling.

Also what are the service frequency levels on the North East Corridor e.g. between NYC and Boston/Washington DC - is Amtrak on this route as frequent as Virgin on WCML?

Depends. Some cities like Manchester or Liverpool see three or more trains an hour to London, usually on a clockface timetable.

And also what are the fares like on this route say in comparison to Virgin on the WCML - are they similar as I did hear that long distance rail travel in the USA is expensive by international standards but I also know that rail travel here is too at least as far as "walk on" fares are concerned but advance purchase can be a lot cheaper.

Again, it depends. In the UK there are three broad tiers of tickets: Advance, Off-Peak and Anytime (in increasing order of cost and flexibility). A (book well in advance, travel on specified train) Advance ticket from Glasgow to London starts at £12 one way (from £52 first class), a (walk-up) off-peak return costs £108.80, an (unrestricted) Anytime return costs £271 (£399 first class). The clockface timetable I mentioned above is a great idea, allowing you to just turn up and go, but it's useless to the majority of passengers who now travel on Advance tickets with reservations valid for a single specific train. It's a few years since I travelled on the Acela, so I can't honestly recall how that compares.

Also, the decision to only offer Business and First Class on the Acela was a highly suspicious decision in my viewpoint. I've discussed/argued this a bit with my American girlfriend, but I strongly believe that for all the belief of being a classless society, the USA is as class-divided, if not more so, than the UK. Anyone can dream the American dream, but few get the opportunity to live it. And the Acela has never really made the impact it should have (considering how much it cost) because the slower and cheaper Amtrak Regionals and countless discount bus lines in the north-east have kept coach (standard) class passengers away.

And finally - a question about Amtraks punctuality - it seems that the North East Corridor is the only Amtrak route where punctuality is at UK or European levels, looking at Amtraks punctuality statistics on many routes (except NEC) seem to be less than 70pc on time - and it looks like thier definition of late running is 30 minutes on most routes compared with 10 minutes here - does anyone know why thier punctuality can be so low?

Because Amtrak own a sizeable chunk of the NEC. Elsewhere, the freight operators own the tracks and despite a legal obligation to allow Amtrak trains priority over their own traffic, always manage to see their own trains (carrying precious revenue generating cargo) get priority. Until Congress / Senate / whoever puts their foot down, the freight railroad dispatchers will decide which trains get priority. In the UK, we have far more passenger trains than freight, and they get the priority. My worst delay experience on Amtrak was on the Coast Starlight, about nine hours late northbound into Seattle from San Franciso....

...and that was a good day, according to train crew

There is plenty of apparently accurate and detailed info on the Acela Wikipedia pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela_Express

 

[Yank 119]

Good points have been made here so far. All trains in the US exceeding 79 mph are required to be equipped with cab signals or to a lesser extent (between 80 and 90), Automatic Train Stop. This also goes for slower trains operating around others exceeding 79. So yes, all trains in the NEC are equipped with cab signal systems.

The scheduling scheme is fairly simple. Acela services operate hourly between Washington and Boston, followed by limited and stopping services. On average, there is probably one train between Washington and Boston every half hour. One must not forget that most of the Corridor is also linked together by various state-owned commuter agencies, namely MARC, SEPTA, NJT, MNR/CDOT, and MBTA. Timekeeping is generally excellent for the NEC as mentioned, as Amtrak does own nearly all of it with the exception of a small section in New York and Connecticut. Overall, it's generally regarded as the model for American passenger train service.

There are drawbacks, as the oft-mentioned average speeds are relatively low. As stated before, the 11 kV OHL system between Washington and New York dates from the 1920s, and is not a constant tension system. The new 25 kV OHL section between New Haven and Boston can handle the higher speeds. There are several bottlenecks that put a damper on the average speed, namely the lengthy Baltimore tunnels which are limited to 30 mph. There are a good number of curves and still a few level crossings on the northern section which do limit its overall potential.

When speaking of punctuality, one must really think of the NEC and the rest of Amtrak's system as two separate entities. Most all of Amtrak's other services around the country are at the mercy of private freight railroads, and many routes are notorious for terrible punctuality. This, coupled with long distance journeys and being limited to 79 mph (90 mph in some places for some routes) spell out a less than desirable system. Even with these drawbacks, many corridors have a significant advantage over road travel. Pricing for coach seats is generally about the same or cheaper than one would expect for driving the same distance. Sleeper services are much more expensive, and usually cost-prohibitive from my experience. Most people would rather fly if the rail journey is long enough to be overnight. The saddest part about Amtrak is the fact that many major cities have no service. Hopefully this will improve in the future.

 

[43021HST]

What do you mean by major cities without an amtrak connection. Give us some examples
Most of our towns are coneccted I think only four towns in the UK have little or no rail connection.

 

[90019]

What do you mean by major cities without an amtrak connection. Give us some examples

There are penty of large cities throughout America without an Amtrak connection, the most notable being San Francisco. But both Wyoming and South Dakota have no Amtrak services whatsoever, and there are states such as Idaho, Tenessee and Kentucky which has only a very small part of the state served by Amtrak.

The Amtrak network is vast, but once you move inland, there are very few lines they operate, IIRC it's only something like 4 separate lines that cross the country. The network is centred mostly around the east coast, but with some on the west coast as well.

 

[Yank 119]

Give us some examples

Okay.

Phoenix, Arizona (pop. 1,567,924)
Columbus, Ohio (pop. 1,773,120)
Las Vegas, Nevada (pop. 1,865,746)
Nashville, Tennessee (pop. 1,550,733)
Louisville, Kentucky (pop. 1,244,696)

Have a look at the Amtrak system map, it's barely a skeletal service compared to the density of lines in the UK.

Map

What's even more startling is the fact that most of the long distance routes depicted on that map only have one train a day in each direction. To say there's room for improvement is a gross understatement.

Also of interest, an article looking at Amtrak's route coverage:

http://www.trainweb.org/moksrail/documents/pop/pop_article.htm

 

[43021HST]

The biggest towns in the UK without a rail connection are:

Gosport:76,415

Ripon: 15,922

Otley: 14,348

Forfar: 13,206

The population contrast between the US cities and and the UK towns is very sharp. I,m very suprised about Gosport though because its in the southeast and its coastal town you would think that it would be quite a proirity to establish a rail connection.

 

[gordonthemoron]

however, Otley is not that far from the Leeds-Ilkley line

 

[jopsuk]

The biggest towns in the UK without a rail connection are:

Gosport:76,415

Ripon: 15,922

Otley: 14,348

Forfar: 13,206

St Andrews at 16,596? Only University town without a railway station.

 

[furryfeet]

how about Hawick ? ( pop 14,801 in 2001 )
or Horwich ? ( pop 19,312 in 2001 ) - although this does now have a parkway station, the original station is now a park. Blackrod is still the closest station to the town centre, being over 1.5 miles away.

 

[pinkpanther]

Most of our towns are coneccted I think only four towns in the UK have little or no rail connection.

Major towns maybe; I can think of plenty of minor ones which don't. Ringwood (12,560) and Bridport (12,977) are the two biggest ones I can think of around here, but they certainly aren't unique in the South West - mostly thanks to Beeching.

I'm sure the same story is repeated all over the country. Spennymoor (17,241) in County Durham is just one which springs to mind from my county of birth.

 

[starrymarkb]

The population contrast between the US cities and and the UK towns is very sharp. I,m very suprised about Gosport though because its in the southeast and its coastal town you would think that it would be quite a proirity to establish a rail connection.

Its also a short (4 mins) ferry ride from Portsmouth Harbour station, rather like Dartmouth which had a station but never any trains (it was served by ferries to Kingswear station on the opposite side of the harbour)

 

[poshbakerloo]

the NEC has a much lower average running speed...

It is as high as150mph in some places and others as high as 135mph but including that the average speed is only 79mph...which means are long parts of the line its gonna be running very slow...