North Downs Line timetable improvement suggestions

[Minstral25]

Moderator note: Split from

May 2025 Timetable Change - Confirmed Changes Only

Good evening all, We're just about to see the December 2024 change take effect so thought it'd be a good time to start up a thread for the next change in May 2025. Ideally keep this thread free for actual fact and gen as and when it is known rather than speculation and "I wish that this TOC...

www.railforums.co.uk

Unsure if this has been mentioned ...

The Mon - Fri Reading (d. 2022) to Shalford (a. 2111) service is extended to Gatwick Airport (a. 2157).
The return working departs Gatwick at 2201, arriving at Reading at 2321.

Also the 2059 Gatwick departure to Reading, which is currently an ECS move, becomes a passenger service.

These changes extend the 2tph departure pattern from Gatwick from 2030 to 2230 - good news for passengers arriving on evening flights.

Good news for local passengers too,

However, it leaves the oddness of 2O96, 22:36 from Reading still terminating at Shalford, leaving the 2-hour gap in service from Guildford to Dorking/Reigate & Redhill exactly at the time when local customers want public transport home after a night out in Guildford.

This needs fixing urgently.

 

[30907]

Good news for local passengers too,

However, it leaves the oddness of 2O96, 22:36 from Reading still terminating at Shalford, leaving the 2 hour gap in service from Guildford to Dorking/Reigate & Redhill exactly at the time when local customers want public transport home after a night out in Guildford.

This needs fixing urgently

It returns empty to Reading, so that means additional round-trip mileage and crew hours for very little revenue.

 

[moonarrow458]

Good news for local passengers too,

However, it leaves the oddness of 2O96, 22:36 from Reading still terminating at Shalford, leaving the 2 hour gap in service from Guildford to Dorking/Reigate & Redhill exactly at the time when local customers want public transport home after a night out in Guildford.

This needs fixing urgently

It returns empty to Reading, so that means additional round-trip mileage and crew hours for very little revenue.

I suppose if you extended 2O96, the 2234 Reading to Shalford to Redhill, calling at all or most stops with an arrival at Redhill around midnight, you might just be able to run it back in service at say 00.05 from Redhill limited stops eg, Reigate, Dorking Deepdene, Guildford and then non-stop to Reading, you may be able to get it back to Reading around 0105, but that would still be about 30 minutes later than the current ECS from Shalford arrives to Reading. Whether that would work for crew diagramming, let alone generate sufficient revenue to be worthwhile is another matter

 

[Minstral25]

It returns empty to Reading, so that means additional round-trip mileage and crew hours for very little revenue.

I suppose if you extended 2O96, the 2234 Reading to Shalford to Redhill, calling at all or most stops with an arrival at Redhill around midnight, you might just be able to run it back in service at say 00.05 from Redhill limited stops eg, Reigate, Dorking Deepdene, Guildford and then non-stop to Reading, you may be able to get it back to Reading around 0105, but that would still be about 30 minutes later than the current ECS from Shalford arrives to Reading. Whether that would work for crew diagramming, let alone generate sufficient revenue to be worthwhile is another matter

How do you know very little Revenue? Currently no-one in their right mind uses public transport from Dorking, Reigate or Redhill to go to either of the two theatres in Guildford, or G-Live or the various music venues and clubs. Why would they as there is no train home. The Venues lose out more than the Railway. The Railway is losing revenue both ways, going to Guildford on earlier trains and returning.

The issue was created by GWR and GTR falling out and not allowing GTR drivers from Redhill work GWR trains. A disagreement that means GWR waste a crew overnight on Redhill station to run an early morning service from Gatwick which must cost a lot of unnecessary wasted money.

Hopefully something an integrated railway (GBR) can work out in time.

 

[800Travel]

How do you know very little Revenue? Currently no-one in their right mind uses public transport from Dorking, Reigate or Redhill to go to either of the two theatres in Guildford, or G-Live or the various music venues and clubs. Why would they as there is no train home. The Venues lose out more than the Railway. The Railway is losing revenue both ways, going to Guildford on earlier trains and returning.

The issue was created by GWR and GTR falling out and not allowing GTR drivers from Redhill work GWR trains. A disagreement that means GWR waste a crew overnight on Redhill station to run an early morning service from Gatwick which must cost a lot of unnecessary wasted money.

Hopefully something an integrated railway (GBR) can work out in time.

Regardless of revenue, hopefully GBR focuses more on a railway run for passengers rather than revenue. Of course the overall operation needs to be funded somehow, but there can surely be a couple of services that bring in little revenue, or even a loss, if the overall benefit to the community is met.

With the direction of the DfT, for example simpler fares, I'm not convinced this will be the case however. A matter for another thread...

 

[Bald Rick]

Regardless of revenue, hopefully GBR focuses more on a railway run for passengers rather than revenue. Of course the overall operation needs to be funded somehow, but there can surely be a couple of services that bring in little revenue, or even a loss, if the overall benefit to the community is met.

Most services on the network runs at a loss, and I’d take a punt that every service on the North Downs is in that bucket.

 

[800Travel]

Most services on the network runs at a loss, and I’d take a punt that every service on the North Downs is in that bucket.

Then most certainly revenue shouldn't be at play

 

[Bald Rick]

Then most certainly revenue shouldn't be at play

We will have to disagree there !

 

[Class 170101]

Most services on the network runs at a loss, and I’d take a punt that every service on the North Downs is in that bucket.

Then most certainly revenue shouldn't be at play

We will have to disagree there !

But on that basis there should be only a few routes and trains. I would suggest that trains that run later into the evening whilst not generating profits themselves may generate revenue to make other services more popular.

 

[dk1]

But on that basis there should be only a few routes and trains. I would suggest that trains that run later into the evening whilst not generating profits themselves may generate revenue to make other services more popular.

Even many peak/busy services still don’t make a profit. It’s always been expected that subsidy has to be given. I’ve never known any different in 40+ railway years.

 

[Bald Rick]

But on that basis there should be only a few routes and trains. I would suggest that trains that run later into the evening whilst not generating profits themselves may generate revenue to make other services more popular.

Sorry, I meant that revenue should be considered - “in play” - for any service decision, not that it should be the sole criteria.

 

[brad465]

Most services on the network runs at a loss, and I’d take a punt that every service on the North Downs is in that bucket.

If the North Downs' line gets higher capacity battery-powered stock, providing it's cheaper to run, shortens journey times and attracts more passengers, would this raise more revenue (which does not necessarily mean the service suddenly runs at a profit)?

 

[Trainlog]

If the North Downs' line gets higher capacity battery-powered stock, providing it's cheaper to run, shortens journey times and attracts more passengers, would this raise more revenue (which does not necessarily mean the service suddenly runs at a profit)?

I reckon this would probably go some way into helping out the North Downs line. When travelling on that line, whilst there are some nice views, it does feel slow with the stop-start nature of the line when doing the line from Redhill - Reading. I can imagine the increased acceleration with the reduced journey times could make the journey more attractive to passengers if the battery stock was implemented on this line.

In terms of what else GWR could do to increase passenger numbers for this line, I reckon the best thing GWR can do is promote the line as a leisure based one for rover tickets usage for the Spring to mid autumn months as there are some nice walks in the area and there is places to see such as Guildford.

However, whilst a rover ticket is available for this line, there are problems such as.

1. The ticket is £21 for a full line rover, however, in comparison to the Southern daysaver for £23 for the full network it doesn't seem to be good value for money.
2. The other issue is that most of the general public isn't aware of any type of rover tickets existing unless it's the London zones 1-6 or a heritage railway one.

 

[JonathanH]

In terms of what else GWR could do to increase passenger numbers for this line, I reckon the best thing GWR can do is promote the line as a leisure based one for rover tickets usage for the Spring to mid autumn months as there are some nice walks in the area and there is places to see such as Guildford.

I'm not sure you really need a rover ticket for those walks though. Someone can just buy a day return to the furthest point of the walk and then stop short as necessary.