North Downs line service history

[Grumpy]

The LH workings had to use the WR side of General - initially P4 had to serve both Waterloo and Redhill trains which needed to double up (fortunately the Ascot split was standard so Waterloos were 4-BIL); that was too inflexible, hence an extra platform was added.
The LH sets normally had a van (typically a BR blue bogie GUV) because of the large amount of parcels and mail traffic; IIRC the 33s worked full parcels trains as well, at least at first.

They crossed the up and down main lines and usually ran into a bay on one of the northern islands

 

[D6130]

They crossed the up and down main lines and usually ran into a bay on one of the northern islands

....in which case they would still have to be shunt-released to run round....or alternatively propel out onto the relief lines?

 

[Rescars]

Reaching back further than the OP, does anyone know what the service was like on this route before the Tadpoles "hatched"?

 

[JonathanH]

Reaching back further than the OP, does anyone know what the service was like on this route before the Tadpoles "hatched"?

The preceding operation was steam hauled. There is detailed information about the Tadpole operation here https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3R-Tadpole.html (which clearly can't all be quoted here).

 

[D6130]

was involved in the production of traincrew diagrams for the South Western Division of the Southern Region between 1973 and 1979, and at that time I recall it being a Woking driver who worked the Class 33+Mk1 afternoon peak service from Reading, or one of them (I can’t remember if there was one or two).

Thanks for the clarification. I did begin to wonder about that after posting. The loco-hauled service that I used frequently in the mid-1970s was the 16 25 (or was it 16 40?) Redhill to Reading as far as Guildford. I had a couple of illicit cab rides and seem to recall that it was a Redhill driver on that one....but my aged memory may be playing tricks again.

You and I must have worked in the same room at DMO Wimbledon in 1977-79.

 

[Undaunted]

Thanks for the clarification. I did begin to wonder about that after posting. The loco-hauled service that I used frequently in the mid-1970s was the 16 25 (or was it 16 40?) Redhill to Reading as far as Guildford. I had a couple of illicit cab rides and seem to recall that it was a Redhill driver on that one....but my aged memory may be playing tricks again.

You and I must have worked in the same room at DMO Wimbledon in 1977-79.

I think that all fits as Woking drivers only had the one diagram involving passenger work on the NDL, which was eastbound from Reading in the evening peak.

I did work in the diagrams section at Wimbledon DMO, but only from 1973-1975. I then went to the HQ diagrams section in Room 400 at Waterloo, referred to as ‘The Goon Show’ by former colleagues from Wimbledon!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

You and I must have worked in the same room at DMO Wimbledon in 1977-79.

I did work in the diagrams section at Wimbledon DMO, but only from 1973-1975

Seems we three all worked there at slightly differing times! As of a few weeks ago the building was in the process of demolition. Another part of railway history gone!

 

[D6130]

Seems we three all worked there at slightly differing times! As of a few weeks ago the building was in the process of demolition. Another part of railway history gone!

I wonder where Lidl have moved their UK Headquarters to? (Sorry, Mods....totally OT!).

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder where Lidl have moved their UK Headquarters to? (Sorry, Mods....totally OT!).

Tolworth, the other side of the railway from the station entrance.

Back on the North Downs Line I find it interesting that the Tadpole era seems to attract more interest than the 119 era. The thing that was apparently useful about the 119s was that they had a very large guards van, and an area once used for a buffet area which was replaced by luggage storage.

The 119s did not seat many people in the coach with the guards van. The first class area had three bays with a total of 18 seats, and the standard class area was two days with a total of 16 seats.

The railcar website says
https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-119/operations

The arrival of Met-Camm sets at Bristol in May 1979 allowed Class 119 sets 573 and 577-80 to move to Reading.

By the end of 1982 almost all the vehicles were allocated to Reading depot. One of the main services they operated from here was onto the Southern Region with a Reading-Gatwick Airport link, and the former SR line to Guildford / Redhill and Tonbridge. This appears to the first time that SR drivers would handle diesel-mechanical units in regular use, and they seem to have appreciated the larger cab windows than their own units (knicknaming them 'Glasshouses'), but found them very different to drive, particularly in challenging weather conditions.

I assume there was a short period before the full 119 fleet was based at Reading when a 117 would appear, but the mainstay through the 1980s was the 119, until the worst examples were replaced by 101s.

 

[Deepgreen]

What was, and what might have been, both at Guildford.

 

[DelW]

Back on the North Downs Line I find it interesting that the Tadpole era seems to attract more interest than the 119 era. The thing that was apparently useful about the 119s was that they had a very large guards van, and an area once used for a buffet area which was replaced by luggage storage.

I think it's probably just that the Tadpoles were so odd in themselves, and were unique to the North Downs line, that encourages the interest. First generation DMUs were ubiquitous in much of the country (though admittedly not on the Southern), and many classes were largely indistinguishable to those brought up on steam, so are regarded as less noteworthy.

 

[Grumpy]

....in which case they would still have to be shunt-released to run round....or alternatively propel out onto the relief lines?

I can’t remember that detail. I suspect the former as at that time (early 70’s) there was a station 08 and the standby 47 was also used for shunting. My interest was that these trains were sometimes hauled by one of the Hastings 33’s and I just needed one to clear the class.

 

[Bevan Price]

The preceding operation was steam hauled. There is detailed information about the Tadpole operation here https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3R-Tadpole.html (which clearly can't all be quoted here).

From memory, the steam service was not regular interval. In 1963/64, typically a Maunsell Class N or U 2-6-0, a BR 75xxx 4-6-0, or a BR 80xxx 2-6-4T and 3 or 4 coaches, or occasional Class 33 diesels. Also some Summer Saturday services from Western Region (Midlands) to South Coast - usually worked by ex GW 78xx "Manor" 4-6-0 between Reading General & Redhill. (Trains reversed at Redhill - Class 33 onward to Brighton or other resort.

 

[izvor]

A timetable from the Tadpole era (1975), and a flyer for the later service pattern, undated but print code suggests 1986.

 

[WesternLancer]

A timetable from the Tadpole era (1975), and a flyer for the later service pattern, undated but print code suggests 1986.

View attachment 192917View attachment 192918View attachment 192919View attachment 192920

Interesting to see. The Winnersh Triangle leaflet rings a bell. New station openings seemed rare events to me.

That must have been just before Network Southeast branding I assume.

 

[Taunton]

Reaching back further than the OP, does anyone know what the service was like on this route before the Tadpoles "hatched"?

Mostly steam 2-6-0s, both former Southern types and BR Standards, plus a large batch of 80xxx Standard 2-6-4T tanks at Redhill. Until a late date of steam operation there were one or two through trains from London Bridge, via Redhill, to Reading, keeping the old SECR tradition alive. There was also a daily through train from Wolverhampton via the WR which reversed at Redhill and ran right through to Margate. I don't believe there was a lot of regular through running at Redhill until the diesels came.

 

[Undaunted]

Back on the North Downs Line I find it interesting that the Tadpole era seems to attract more interest than the 119 era. The thing that was apparently useful about the 119s was that they had a very large guards van, and an area once used for a buffet area which was replaced by luggage storage.

Good point! The 119s were really nice to ride in with 2+2 seating in standard class, virtually all of it in bays with windows rather than doors. The 117s and 101s were a complete downgrade, like comparing a VEP with a CIG. Who needs people crashing in and out of the doors every few minutes, tripping over you and clumping you with their bags and wet umbrellas?

 

[eastwestdivide]

The 33+3Mk1 coaches rush hour workings also reached Tonbridge. In around 1979(?), I and a friend once took one from Redhill in the evening. When we got to Tonbridge I lost him on the platform. He eventually appeared climbing down from the cab of the 33 after it had run round the coaches. “Cabbed it” he said. Cheeky!

I found my notes: 6 April 1978, hauled by 33050 from Redhill-Tonbridge, in coach S4392 (SO/TSO). The formation was 4066, 4392, 34638 (BSK), so no first class.

 

[stuving]

A timetable from the Tadpole era (1975), and a flyer for the later service pattern, undated but print code suggests 1986.

The opening of Winnersh Triangle station was reported locally on 17th May 1886 as "this week". So Monday 12th that year, as given in that leaflet, seems to be right.

The Gatwick service from Reading started in 1980, apparently near the beginning of May. I have not found a specific announcement, but BR added a mention of this to adverts they were already running for Railair Link. The first such mention I found in the British Newspaper Archive was on 7th May (in the Wolverhampton Express and Star!).


The name "Railair Link" was being used then more widely than it was later on, perhaps associated with the use of the name "Link Line" as on the leaflet.

 

[WesternLancer]

The opening of Winnersh Triangle station was reported locally on 17th May 1886 as "this week". So Monday 12th that year, as given in that leaflet, seems to be right.

The Gatwick service from Reading started in 1980, apparently near the beginning of May. I have not found a specific announcement, but BR added a mention of this to adverts they were already running for Railair Link. The first such mention I found in the British Newspaper Archive was on 7th May (in the Wolverhampton Express and Star!).
View attachment 192931

The name "Railair Link" was being used then more widely than it was later on, perhaps associated with the use of the name "Link Line" as on the leaflet.

interesting to see - a quick search on line gives NSE launch date as 10 June 1986 - so the new Winnersh Triangle station leaflet needed to be out before that (in the 'jaffa cake' era I guess)

 

[Deepgreen]

Interesting to see. The Winnersh Triangle leaflet rings a bell. New station openings seemed rare events to me.

That must have been just before Network Southeast branding I assume.

Also before the re-naming of Dorking's stations.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also before the re-naming of Dorking's stations.

good point - I didn't notice that!

 

[Rescars]

Mostly steam 2-6-0s, both former Southern types and BR Standards, plus a large batch of 80xxx Standard 2-6-4T tanks at Redhill. Until a late date of steam operation there were one or two through trains from London Bridge, via Redhill, to Reading, keeping the old SECR tradition alive. There was also a daily through train from Wolverhampton via the WR which reversed at Redhill and ran right through to Margate. I don't believe there was a lot of regular through running at Redhill until the diesels came.

It is perhaps surprising that the GWR and SECR didn't make more of the possibilities of through working. Wolverhampton to Margate is an interesting route. Not a huge passenger flow from one end to the other I'd guess. London Bridge to Reading though would have attractions even today. As might Birmingham (or for practical purposes Oxley) to Dover. Some opportunities for creative marketing here perhaps.

 

[Taunton]

The issue for longer distance operations was always the reversal at Redhill, which came to a pinnacle in WW2. Multiple proposals for a direct link but never achieved, and of course for passenger services it would cut out one of the principal connection points on the route.

 

[anothertyke]

Mostly steam 2-6-0s, both former Southern types and BR Standards, plus a large batch of 80xxx Standard 2-6-4T tanks at Redhill. Until a late date of steam operation there were one or two through trains from London Bridge, via Redhill, to Reading, keeping the old SECR tradition alive. There was also a daily through train from Wolverhampton via the WR which reversed at Redhill and ran right through to Margate. I don't believe there was a lot of regular through running at Redhill until the diesels came.

In the 1950s tha North Downs Line was the last bastion of the Wainwright D class 4-4-0s (one preserved in the NRM).

In the 60s, there were rare examples of Q1s on the services when all else failed.

Also I think that although most of the trains were operated from Guildford and Redhill sheds, there was one duty from Reading. Did Reading Southern shed close and was one train a day taken over in the early 60s by Reading GWR with a Manor or a 63xx? That's my possibly faulty memory.

Edit-- found a photo of 2-6-0 6366 on line at Reading South with what looks like a three coach Maunsell set.

 

[nw1]

At some point in the early 1980s, the service levels at the local stations between Guildford and Reigate were cut back, with off-peak stoppers terminating at Guildford at off-peak times.

This was a bit later I think; I remember it was still an hourly Tonbridge stopper in the mid-80s.

EDIT: sorry, missed post above suggesting 1986 was the date.

 

[30907]

Checking back in my stash of working documents:

1. The only relevant WTTs I have are 1978-9 and these show the service as 100% DEMU including a couple of parcels workings. There was a relative surplus of 3-Hs by then, and IIRC only the Oxted line retained hauled 8-sets.

2. The 3-set workings were as follows (1976, but they hardly changed from 1965).
I include the Reading platform numbers - all the hauled services ran from/to the main station for obvious reasons.

0646 Reading (P10)/1640 Redhill (P8)
0702 Tonbridge (P4)/1707 Reading-Redhill (laid over in Reading DD, then shunt to P6)
0744 Tonbridge/1841 Redhill/1945 Tonbridge/2326 Reading (P5)-Guildford then ECS and mail to Redhill.
I don't have the Tonbridge workings, but the last two down from Redhill were presumably hauled, or there was an ECS/parcels.

I note that the bogie vans are no longer in the formation by 1976

0646 and 0702 also ran SO

The first Tonbridge-Redhill and back was a Hastings unit, and the 2015 return trip a 3-D from Eridge.

The only run-round at Reading was the late evening working,

 

[nw1]

Interesting to see. The Winnersh Triangle leaflet rings a bell. New station openings seemed rare events to me.

That must have been just before Network Southeast branding I assume.

Winnersh Triangle definitely was 1986, I remember that.

Didn't realise the cutbacks to the smaller North Downs stations occurred that early, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2025 ==

Photo'd at Guildford having arrived from Reading, sometime between 9th and 19th April 1981, 3R, 1206.

This was the 119 era - but I do remember occasional DEMU (3H or 3D) substitutions on the line a bit later, in late 1982 and 1983. I never saw 1206 though, presumably it disappeared long after.