North Downs line electrification

[HarleyDavidson]

He's probably right as it doesn't have any toffs, public skools, old skool chums, celebs or MPs on its route, nor does it serve London.

Everything must have at least 2 or more of the above for it to qualify.

 

[Deepgreen]

He's probably right as it doesn't have any toffs, public skools, old skool chums, celebs or MPs on its route, nor does it serve London.

Everything must have at least 2 or more of the above for it to qualify.

It does have Nicholas Owen (the newsreader and member of the Southern Electric Group) with whom I had a very good chat on a train one day, plus Reigate school (good but not private) and any number of "toffs" (who don't use the railway, obviously).

 

[greaterwest]

You mean those that were hidden by the former western region because they thought that electrification wasn't going to happen, and what few plans existed were lost by railtrack? Those ones that have been well document, including by PP earlier in the thread?

For all everyone goes around saying that NR couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery, if they were really as incompetent as everyone said, we'd be in a somewhat Railtrack-esque era of mismangement. Not to mention that with practice comes experience. If you hadn't done something on as complicated a scale as this for several decades, you'd quite rightfully be quite rusty at it!

Indeed, though it wasn't PP who actually mentioned them, it was edwin_m, but at least they were mentioned in any case.

Practice does come with experience but would you not agree that in this day and age there are so many regulations surrounding everything, and everything is so seemingly well thought through over and over that things like this could have been avoided?

I would love you to give an example of a lesson not learned from a mistake.

The MML electrification.... although that's got its fair share of ongoing problems just like the GWML.
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It does have Nicholas Owen (the newsreader and member of the Southern Electric Group) with whom I had a very good chat on a train one day, plus Reigate school (good but not private) and any number of "toffs" (who don't use the railway, obviously).

Crowthorne station was built for Wellington College. Farnborough North may very well have been built partially with the reason to serve Farnborough College too.

 

[Domh245]

Practice does come with experience but would you not agree that in this day and age there are so many regulations surrounding everything, and everything is so seemingly well thought through over and over that things like this could have been avoided?

To quote NajaB's signature - "There's no difference between theory and practice. In theory." - Nobody was really expecting the HOPS to be the PITA that it was at the start of it's life, nor was anyone expecting to be piling through signalling cables every other night. You can anticipate a lot of things, but there will almost always be something that goes wrong (see the Finsbury Park and GWML closures over christmas 2014 - all the planning and redundancy that you could reasonably expect but all of the RRVs caused headaches and it led to the chaos that followed). It is in part why some planning is done on probability.

The MML electrification.... although that's got its fair share of ongoing problems just like the GWML.

What problems are they? It was paused temporarily whilst the Hendy review was underway, but nothing has gone seriously wrong yet (that I knew about)

 

[greaterwest]

To quote NajaB's signature - "There's no difference between theory and practice. In theory." - Nobody was really expecting the HOPS to be the PITA that it was at the start of it's life, nor was anyone expecting to be piling through signalling cables every other night. You can anticipate a lot of things, but there will almost always be something that goes wrong (see the Finsbury Park and GWML closures over christmas 2014 - all the planning and redundancy that you could reasonably expect but all of the RRVs caused headaches and it led to the chaos that followed). It is in part why some planning is done on probability.



What problems are they? It was paused temporarily whilst the Hendy review was underway, but nothing has gone seriously wrong yet (that I knew about)

I do see where you're coming from in that respect.

The question with the MML electrification (which again has probably been discussed to death elsewhere on this forum) is why the replan in the first place?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I suspect that emissions concerns will reduce the life span of DMUs, unless they can be re-engined/re-engineered.

I do not want to get too far OT but I suspect you are correct. It was mentioned in the Birmingham New Street thread about emissions. A long term rolling program of 25kV AC OHLE is what is needed - INCLUDING North Downs!

 

[The Ham]

Crowthorne station was built for Wellington College. Farnborough North may very well have been built partially with the reason to serve Farnborough College too.

Which College; Farnborough Sixth Form College or Farnborough College of Technology? I would guess the former.

He's probably right as it doesn't have any toffs, public skools, old skool chums, celebs or MPs on its route, nor does it serve London.

Everything must have at least 2 or more of the above for it to qualify.

On the subject of education then there is Salesian College (a public school) which is a short distance from North Camp. As such that is at least one of the items listed on the route.

 

[greaterwest]

Which College; Farnborough Sixth Form College or Farnborough College of Technology? I would guess the former.

Very good point!

I think the 6th form is closer.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I do see where you're coming from in that respect.

The question with the MML electrification (which again has probably been discussed to death elsewhere on this forum) is why the replan in the first place?

There's no significant change of what will be delivered on the MML electrification and negligible change in cost, delivery is being staggered because personnel and plant that should have been available as GWML wrapped up are going to be late coming off that project.

It also gives the teams working on the ground more time to be absolutely certain issues that have arisen with the GWML scheme aren't repeated on the MML.

When it was paused, piling was on target and route clearance work was ahead of schedule.

 

[tsr]

It does have Nicholas Owen (the newsreader and member of the Southern Electric Group) with whom I had a very good chat on a train one day, plus Reigate school (good but not private) and any number of "toffs" (who don't use the railway, obviously).

I think you mean Reigate College (not private, but a reasonable and popular Sixth Form College, and right beside Reigate station) and Reigate Grammar School (private, large and generally reckoned to be very good). Reigate School is some considerable distance away in Woodhatch, and very very few of its pupils commute by train.

There are also some children who commute to secondary schools in Dorking by using the NDL, as well as plenty for schools and colleges in Guildford, some needing a change of trains at Guildford station itself. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that one of the main user groups for this line would be schoolkids, but I would hazard a guess that it's probably not as major a revenue source as it probably should be.

Very good point!

I think the 6th form is closer.

Yep - FCOT students sometimes use Farnborough North, but some also walk/cycle to North Camp instead, despite it being a bit of a trek. This is probably because it has a better frequency of service for those requiring the major stations further from Farnborough.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

nor was anyone expecting to be piling through signalling cables every other night.

We had S&T burying cables just before electrification started, when signal cable theft reached epidemic levels.

I think we've all forgotten just how manic things were at that time, forward planning consisted of trying to stop the same gang coming back and stealing the newly replaced cable the following night.

 

[HSTEd]

It's not specifically to do with third rail itself, yes it would be more expensive and less efficient than 25kV AC, that's not the main reason. Synergies is probably the official buzzword to use but you'll (quite rightly) point and laugh.

This is why I hate professional managers. Always using buzzwords every five seconds to try and make it sound like they actually know something about the industry they work in.

The main reason is planning for the eventual replacement of the Class 158 and Class 159 fleets, which is long enough in the future for a realistic electrification program to be developed to allow for their eventual replacement with EMU stock.

That is an interesting argument, although I could make one that one DMU is effectively fungible and it doesn't really matter where it is displaced from as long as it is. Tis one of those things.

I understand the feeding arrangements for DC to Exeter were looked at by British Rail and losses reach something like 50% because of the distances involved, even today, things wouldn't be much better because there's limited regenerative braking capability (few or no other trains within each electrical section to use the regenerated electric).

It would be interesting to see any paperwork from that, I might go looking if I am bored one evening.
As to regenerative braking - assuming the trains will stop regen if the rail voltage climbs too high you could just abandon regeneration and set the substation voltage to 900V, that way you significantly reduce the load currents in the rail.
That would significantly reduce motoring losses that under some circumstances would more than offset the loss of regeneration.

 

[TheKnightWho]

This is why I hate professional managers. Always using buzzwords every five seconds to try and make it sound like they actually know something about the industry they work in.

Synergy does have a useful and well-understood meaning...

 

[snowball]

This is why I hate professional managers. Always using buzzwords every five seconds to try and make it sound like they actually know something about the industry they work in.


one DMU is effectively fungible

Pot kettle?

 

[HSTEd]

Pot kettle?

Perhaps, but I am not a professional manager.
I am a(n) (unpaid) (student) politician.

Buzzwords are required unfortunately

Synergy does have a useful and well-understood meaning...

Yes, but 99% of the time it is used it doesn't really mean anything at all these days.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect that emissions concerns will reduce the life span of DMUs, unless they can be re-engined/re-engineered.

Replacing DMUs (fungible or otherwise) by a third-rail system which wastes about 50% of the power fed into it is probably an overall minus for emissions.

Unless we manage to get a whole lot of decarbonisation into the electricity supply industry - where the way government is going about it looks like putting the failings of NR well into the shade.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Pot kettle?

Something isn't a buzzword just because it's uncommon
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, but 99% of the time it is used it doesn't really mean anything at all these days.

That's often the case, but I don't think that's the case when talking about the advantages of a holistic management structure (whoops, did I do it myself?).

 

[HSTEd]

Replacing DMUs (fungible or otherwise) by a third-rail system which wastes about 50% of the power fed into it is probably an overall minus for emissions.

50% is probably a little extreme, especially considering SMPS and similar allow virtual feeding points to reduce effective section length.
Savings from regeneration are probably relatively small anyway, even if you have to abandon it.

On the other side of the coin, there is no particular reason you can't have DC regenerate to grid these days.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

On the other side of the coin, there is no particular reason you can't have DC regenerate to grid these days.

Using inverters?

(Empower Network Rail) - sorry empowerment is a management buzzword too and I could not resist.

 

[HSTEd]

Using inverters?

(Empower Network Rail) - sorry empowerment is a management buzzword too and I could not resist.

Yes, DC to AC inverters are everywhere now, luckily enough with the right voltage ratings. (For solar inverters if nothing else).

 

[Mikey C]

Replacing DMUs (fungible or otherwise) by a third-rail system which wastes about 50% of the power fed into it is probably an overall minus for emissions.

Unless we manage to get a whole lot of decarbonisation into the electricity supply industry - where the way government is going about it looks like putting the failings of NR well into the shade.

Localised diesel particulates are more of an issue than CO2 now. Not such an issue for the relatively open North Down line, but an issue where DMUs reach urban areas.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Yes, DC to AC inverters are everywhere now, luckily enough with the right voltage ratings. (For solar inverters if nothing else).

To be honest, Basingstoke to Exeter is going to be done with AC whatever the case.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

To be honest, Basingstoke to Exeter is going to be done with AC whatever the case.

To me it makes most sense because you have to assume (not getting too far OT) that Derby - Newquay/Penzance will feature sooner or later - or at least as far as Exeter as an interim and that is definitely going to be 25kV AC OHLE. So with Exeter AC then it sure as anything will be Basingstoke to Exeter.

 

[edwin_m]

50% is probably a little extreme, especially considering SMPS and similar allow virtual feeding points to reduce effective section length.
Savings from regeneration are probably relatively small anyway, even if you have to abandon it.

On the other side of the coin, there is no particular reason you can't have DC regenerate to grid these days.

I was quoting figures from Mr Phlopp a few pages back in reference to Salisbury to Exeter (not North Downs, but then this thread has wandered all over the place). Someone who probably knows more about this than the rest of us put together.

 

[HSTEd]

I was quoting figures from Mr Phlopp a few pages back in reference to Salisbury to Exeter (not North Downs, but then this thread has wandered all over the place). Someone who probably knows more about this than the rest of us put together.

Yes, but the fact that that was a British Rail study (and most likely dates from the Class 50 replacement project) means that it is no longer up to date, that was 25 years ago now after all. What is the condition of power electronics today compared to then? The rectifier technology would have been the same 'low cost' type gear used on the Weymouth project, not more modern equipment we would use today if we were designing a third rail system from scratch.
You could build a North Downs or West of England project with no railway owned High Voltage equipment at all.

To be honest, Basingstoke to Exeter is going to be done with AC whatever the case.

Well yes, but that was going to happen no matter what a modern DC project could do. But this insistence is likely to result in it not happening before all of us are in the ground.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

To me it makes most sense because you have to assume (not getting too far OT) that Derby - Newquay/Penzance will feature sooner or later - or at least as far as Exeter as an interim and that is definitely going to be 25kV AC OHLE. So with Exeter AC then it sure as anything will be Basingstoke to Exeter.

Yes. Feeding arrangements make it sensible and financially attractive in any case, for example you would likely have a feeder at Exeter, which would feed the 'GWR' route towards Cogload Jn and the 'SWT' route to Salisbury.

 

[Minstral25]

Whether North Downs is electrified or not, there is a need to sort out service provision.

Relatively few users on the line between Guildford and Reigate want to go to Gatwick, they would much prefer a London service. So any extension of electrification on this stretch should include benefits from providing regular direct London trains. It might make the numbers work better.

 

[greaterwest]

Whether North Downs is electrified or not, there is a need to sort out service provision.

Relatively few users on the line between Guildford and Reigate want to go to Gatwick, they would much prefer a London service. So any extension of electrification on this stretch should include benefits from providing regular direct London trains. It might make the numbers work better.

Which third rail would allow for; Southern could extend their Reigate services to Guildford in the peaks, or even provide a regular service if the signalling headways were improved.

 

[FenMan]

Whether North Downs is electrified or not, there is a need to sort out service provision.

Relatively few users on the line between Guildford and Reigate want to go to Gatwick, they would much prefer a London service. So any extension of electrification on this stretch should include benefits from providing regular direct London trains. It might make the numbers work better.

Dorking and Reigate passengers already have direct London services. The other stations on that stretch serve such small populations that I very much doubt a business case could be made. In any case, there are decent connections at Guildford, Dorking and Redhill.

For what it's worth, I frequently use NDL services to go to London via Guildford or Reading and don't find it a problem changing trains (maybe I'm just used to it).

 

[hwl]

Someone who probably knows more about this than the rest of us put together.

Only if you exclude Bald Rick from the rest of us...