• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

North Downs line electrification

Status
Not open for further replies.

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,886
Location
Cambridge, UK
If it's going to descend into petty name calling, I'm out.

Personally I generally find your posts interesting and informative - it's very good to have an 'insiders' view of some of what NR is doing, so please don't stop posting...

I've been to a couple of railway society meetings where talks were given by NR engineers - they've been very interesting and provoked a lot of good questions from the audience, and I certainly didn't get the impression that they didn't know what they were doing - quite the opposite in fact (and I'm speaking as an engineer myself, albeit nothing directly to do with railways).

I agree with the decision to stop installing any more 3rd rail. I don't understand why BR carried on installing it over long distances after the point that dual-voltage AC/DC rolling stock became a sensible proposition i.e. once suitable silicon rectifiers were available. Even 1500V DC overhead would have been more sensible than taking 3rd rail to Bournemouth...

Yes, there are problems with NR, but they are not all of their own making, and the new chairman & top management do seem to be serious about getting a grip on the 'new project' side of things.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Well said!
On top of that, I don't see nearly as many problems, reliability wise, with third rail as I do with OLE.

Reliability isn't the only consideration when choosing an electrification system. Sure, it plays a part, but installation cost, running costs, and safety all come into it as well. OHLE trumps 3rd rail when it comes to safety and running costs, and I don't think is that far off in installation cost (more materials but fewer substations). Additionally, 3rd rail isn't exactly the best scheme in colder weather when there is a risk of ice!

Why replace perfectly capable & functioning 750vDC with 25kV AC? An infill would certainly be cheaper!

The end goal is for all track to be electrified with 25kV AC OHLE where practical. At some point, the 3rd rail will need to go as it does somewhat limit the performance of the stock. It makes sense then to not install something at great cost, only to then replace it afterwards
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,229
Do I hear that the Farringdon supply changeover is regarded as the Achilles Heel of Thameslink?

I don't think you do hear that. The only highly publicised incident since the changed operating arrangements started (i.e. northbound changeover is now at City T/L) was an issue with a southbound 319 where one of the pans failed to lower.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,661
The end goal is for all track to be electrified with 25kV AC OHLE where practical. At some point, the 3rd rail will need to go as it does somewhat limit the performance of the stock. It makes sense then to not install something at great cost, only to then replace it afterwards

To add to that, i believe the Nitwits at Network Rail have stated that lines will only be done once the existing 3rd rail equipment approaches life expiry. Very efficient use of resources.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
It's not that, it's a serious discussion about a complete (and alas ongoing) squandering of public assets and money; a real "Emperor Has No Clothes" situation that many competent observers can see.

It's not a real discussion, I've explained several times why third rail is not being considered, and why we're planning conversion of routes to 25kV AC, but it doesn't please you, you consider Network Rail to be incompetent, and resort to petty name calling.

Just to recap, once again for your benefit, why third rail is being condemned.

Efficiency: Third rail is inefficient, losses on the third rail system are in many cases simply enormous, upto 30% of the total energy put into the third rail system is converted to heat before it reaches the shoe gear of a third rail train, and regenerative braking performance (when and where available) results in some of the regenerative braking also being converted to heat before it can be used by another train in the same electrical section.

National Grid to train losses for AC units are, on average, 1/6th of those losses for DC units, and regenerative braking performance for AC units averages around 30% more than DC units.

The billable losses via the Electric Current for Traction (ET4C) is around 18% for DC (12% for MerseyRail) and 4% for AC during CP5, with the expectation that the ET4C billable loss will increase by around 1% for DC for CP6, as a result of increasing losses.

Track Maintenance: It's not cheap to maintain DC electrified track, this will hopefully improve with the new HOBC which is third rail compatible (someone count the broken insulator pots for me though, please) and by converting to absolutely normal plain line without third rail, colleagues estimate maintenance savings of around £6,000 per single track mile per year.

OLE maintenance does use some of those savings, approximately £1,500 per single track mile per year, which we're aiming to reduce with more OLE inspection equipped passenger trains, but that's future, and I'm being scrupulously fair here.

Electrical equipment renewal: 750V DC third rail is now relatively unique globally, Britain has as much third rail as the rest of the world combined. 25kV, 50Hz AC overhead electrification is the most widely used electrification system in the world. There are off the shelf components available from companies like ABB, Siemens, Furrer+Frey, Bombardier, Hitachi, Alstom and others.

Third rail equipment, particularly anything involved in the actual conductor rail is more bespoke and more expensive. 750V DC switchgear is widely used for trams, and less of an issue, though the current draw involved for National Rail use is of course much more substantial, and the number needed is simply preposterous (a good rule is 10 to 15 DC substations for one 25kV AT feeder site).

The third rail switchgear is getting older, and there's a significant quantity due for renewal in the next 10 to 20 years (less the new switchgear which was installed to enable slam door stock to be withdrawn).

The current estimates suggest that for the same money as like for like DC switchgear replacement, 25kV AC switchgear can be installed and a modest amount of overhead line can be installed. Not all the line needed by any stretch, but some of it, and that is without committing to additional expenditure. The remaining OLE needed would have to come from capital expenditure, but would be recouped from lower track maintenance costs and increased premium from train operators seeing lower EC4T costs.

Signalling: Return current on DC is the main cause of track circuit failures and one of the main causes for delays in third rail land. I know of many signalling engineers who are desperate to see the back of third rail. 25kV AC being a global semi-standard means reliability for AC compatible signalling systems is getting better and better, our DC specific requirements and the small market mean our reliability is improving more slowly.

Performance: Network Rail modelling plus real world data suggests converting from DC to AC would see performance gains of between 1 and 5 minutes for many services in the southeast, with the possibility of creating additional train paths, or to allow additional station calls and station re-openings to be considered.

Capacity: This is a bit of a rehash of the efficiency argument, additional capacity can be accommodated by providing additional substations and upgrading the supply capacity to the NR 33kV grid, at a cost. The additional supply provided needs to take into account the additional losses.

25kV conversion wipes the slate clean, and provided it's specified accordingly, could cope with the largest possible demands anybody can envisage within current and future signalling headways, train lengths, traction demands etc. It's slightly unfair on DC to include this, as upgrades to the DC grid have to be fitted in and around the current demands, so it doesn't get the chance for a slate wiped clean, but such is life.

Safety: DC to AC conversion will increase safety. The only railway member of staff to die on the railway during 2014/15 was a cleaner who fell onto the third rail. Statistically, we're four times more likely to see a serious injury or fatality due to third rail than we are due to AC electrification, all weighted for passenger miles using DC or AC.

Don't think I've missed anything.

Yes, the GWep project isn't perfect, but on the other hand, the Scotland electrification is, and as we get more engineers up to speed on electrification, I'm left in no doubt the engineers on the ground will manage to convert DC to AC routes on time and on budget (a budget which realises significant savings over like for like DC renewal).
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
I don't think you do hear that. The only highly publicised incident since the changed operating arrangements started (i.e. northbound changeover is now at City T/L) was an issue with a southbound 319 where one of the pans failed to lower.

Just because it is reliable doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The trains have to change power supply there which not only adds time, but a potential source of delay if there is a train that fails to change over.
 

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,886
Location
Cambridge, UK
Just to recap, why third rail is being condemned.

Efficiency: Third rail is inefficient, losses on the third rail system are in many cases simply enormous, upto 30% of the total energy put into the third rail system is converted to heat before it reaches the shoe gear of a third rail train, and regenerative braking performance (when and where available) results in some of the regenerative braking also being converted to heat before it can be used by another train in the same electrical section.

National Grid to train losses for AC units are, on average, 1/6th of those losses for DC units, and regenerative braking performance for AC units averages around 30% more than DC units.

The billable losses via the Electric Current for Traction (ET4C) is around 18% for DC (12% for MerseyRail) and 4% for AC during CP5, with the expectation that the ET4C billable loss will increase by around 1% for DC for CP6, as a result of increasing losses.

Track Maintenance: It's not cheap to maintain DC electrified track, this will hopefully improve with the new HOBC which is third rail compatible (someone count the broken insulator pots for me though, please) and by converting to absolutely normal plain line without third rail, colleagues estimate maintenance savings of around £6,000 per single track mile per year.

OLE maintenance does use some of those savings, approximately £1,500 per single track mile per year, which we're aiming to reduce with more OLE inspection equipped passenger trains, but that's future, and I'm being scrupulously fair here.

Electrical equipment renewal: 750V DC third rail is now relatively unique globally, Britain has as much third rail as the rest of the world combined. 25kV, 50Hz AC overhead electrification is the most widely used electrification system in the world. There are off the shelf components available from companies like ABB, Siemens, Furrer+Frey, Bombardier, Hitachi, Alstom and others.

Third rail equipment, particularly anything involved in the actual conductor rail is more bespoke and more expensive. 750V DC switchgear is widely used for trams, and less of an issue, though the current draw involved for National Rail use is of course much more substantial, and the number needed is simply preposterous (a good rule is 10 to 15 DC substations for one 25kV AT feeder site).

The third rail switchgear is getting older, and there's a significant quantity due for renewal in the next 10 to 20 years (less the new switchgear which was installed to enable slam door stock to be withdrawn).

The current estimates suggest that for the same money as like for like DC switchgear replacement, 25kV AC switchgear can be installed and a modest amount of overhead line can be installed. Not all the line needed by any stretch, but some of it, and that is without committing to additional expenditure. The remaining OLE needed would have to come from capital expenditure, but would be recouped from lower track maintenance costs and increased premium from train operators seeing lower EC4T costs.

Signalling: Return current on DC is the main cause of track circuit failures and one of the main causes for delays in third rail land. I know of many signalling engineers who are desperate to see the back of third rail. 25kV AC being a global semi-standard means reliability for AC compatible signalling systems is getting better and better, our DC specific requirements and the small market mean our reliability is improving more slowly.

Performance: Network Rail modelling plus real world data suggests converting from DC to AC would see performance gains of between 1 and 5 minutes for many services in the southeast, with the possibility of creating additional train paths, or to allow additional station calls and station re-openings to be considered.

Capacity: This is a bit of a rehash of the efficiency argument, additional capacity can be accommodated by providing additional substations and upgrading the supply capacity to the NR 33kV grid, at a cost. The additional supply provided needs to take into account the additional losses.

25kV conversion wipes the slate clean, and provided it's specified accordingly, could cope with the largest possible demands anybody can envisage within current and future signalling headways, train lengths, traction demands etc. It's slightly unfair on DC to include this, as upgrades to the DC grid have to be fitted in and around the current demands, so it doesn't get the chance for a slate wiped clean, but such is life.

Safety: DC to AC conversion will increase safety. The only railway member of staff to die on the railway during 2014/15 was a cleaner who fell onto the third rail. Statistically, we're four times more likely to see a serious injury or fatality due to third rail than we are due to AC electrification, all weighted for passenger miles using DC or AC.

Don't think I've missed anything.

Yes, the GWep project isn't perfect, but on the other hand, the Scotland electrification is, and as we get more engineers up to speed on electrification, I'm left in no doubt the engineers on the ground will manage to convert DC to AC routes on time and on budget (a budget which realises significant savings over like for like DC renewal).

Thank you - well said.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,229
Just because it is reliable doesn't mean it isn't a problem. The trains have to change power supply there which not only adds time, but a potential source of delay if there is a train that fails to change over.

...and just because it is a potential problem doesn't mean it is the 'achilles heel' of the Thameslink network either, which was suggested.

What was the alternative? Extend AC south to some other single point of failure, or extend south to more points on the different T/L branches, in amongst the rest of the third rail area?
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,458
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
It's not a real discussion, I've explained several times why third rail is not being considered, and why we're planning conversion of routes to 25kV AC, but it doesn't please you, you consider Network Rail to be incompetent, and resort to petty name calling.

Just to recap, once again for your benefit, why third rail is being condemned.

Efficiency: Third rail is inefficient, losses on the third rail system are in many cases simply enormous, upto 30% of the total energy put into the third rail system is converted to heat before it reaches the shoe gear of a third rail train, and regenerative braking performance (when and where available) results in some of the regenerative braking also being converted to heat before it can be used by another train in the same electrical section.

National Grid to train losses for AC units are, on average, 1/6th of those losses for DC units, and regenerative braking performance for AC units averages around 30% more than DC units.

The billable losses via the Electric Current for Traction (ET4C) is around 18% for DC (12% for MerseyRail) and 4% for AC during CP5, with the expectation that the ET4C billable loss will increase by around 1% for DC for CP6, as a result of increasing losses.

Track Maintenance: It's not cheap to maintain DC electrified track, this will hopefully improve with the new HOBC which is third rail compatible (someone count the broken insulator pots for me though, please) and by converting to absolutely normal plain line without third rail, colleagues estimate maintenance savings of around £6,000 per single track mile per year.

OLE maintenance does use some of those savings, approximately £1,500 per single track mile per year, which we're aiming to reduce with more OLE inspection equipped passenger trains, but that's future, and I'm being scrupulously fair here.

Electrical equipment renewal: 750V DC third rail is now relatively unique globally, Britain has as much third rail as the rest of the world combined. 25kV, 50Hz AC overhead electrification is the most widely used electrification system in the world. There are off the shelf components available from companies like ABB, Siemens, Furrer+Frey, Bombardier, Hitachi, Alstom and others.

Third rail equipment, particularly anything involved in the actual conductor rail is more bespoke and more expensive. 750V DC switchgear is widely used for trams, and less of an issue, though the current draw involved for National Rail use is of course much more substantial, and the number needed is simply preposterous (a good rule is 10 to 15 DC substations for one 25kV AT feeder site).

The third rail switchgear is getting older, and there's a significant quantity due for renewal in the next 10 to 20 years (less the new switchgear which was installed to enable slam door stock to be withdrawn).

The current estimates suggest that for the same money as like for like DC switchgear replacement, 25kV AC switchgear can be installed and a modest amount of overhead line can be installed. Not all the line needed by any stretch, but some of it, and that is without committing to additional expenditure. The remaining OLE needed would have to come from capital expenditure, but would be recouped from lower track maintenance costs and increased premium from train operators seeing lower EC4T costs.

Signalling: Return current on DC is the main cause of track circuit failures and one of the main causes for delays in third rail land. I know of many signalling engineers who are desperate to see the back of third rail. 25kV AC being a global semi-standard means reliability for AC compatible signalling systems is getting better and better, our DC specific requirements and the small market mean our reliability is improving more slowly.

Performance: Network Rail modelling plus real world data suggests converting from DC to AC would see performance gains of between 1 and 5 minutes for many services in the southeast, with the possibility of creating additional train paths, or to allow additional station calls and station re-openings to be considered.

Capacity: This is a bit of a rehash of the efficiency argument, additional capacity can be accommodated by providing additional substations and upgrading the supply capacity to the NR 33kV grid, at a cost. The additional supply provided needs to take into account the additional losses.

25kV conversion wipes the slate clean, and provided it's specified accordingly, could cope with the largest possible demands anybody can envisage within current and future signalling headways, train lengths, traction demands etc. It's slightly unfair on DC to include this, as upgrades to the DC grid have to be fitted in and around the current demands, so it doesn't get the chance for a slate wiped clean, but such is life.

Safety: DC to AC conversion will increase safety. The only railway member of staff to die on the railway during 2014/15 was a cleaner who fell onto the third rail. Statistically, we're four times more likely to see a serious injury or fatality due to third rail than we are due to AC electrification, all weighted for passenger miles using DC or AC.

Don't think I've missed anything.

Yes, the GWep project isn't perfect, but on the other hand, the Scotland electrification is, and as we get more engineers up to speed on electrification, I'm left in no doubt the engineers on the ground will manage to convert DC to AC routes on time and on budget (a budget which realises significant savings over like for like DC renewal).

One thing I have never seen discussed is the possibility of 25kV at third rail level - i.e. a micro-pantograph in place of shoegear and a high-tension (I mean physical rather than electrical tension) live cable in place of the third rail. The safety risk would seem to be similar for each - touch it and you fry, albeit more thoroughly in the case of 25kV. The other immediate issue I can see is flashovers at the much higher voltage. I'm no electrical person, so most or all of what I have written may be nonsense. I also realise that the OHLE around the country will not be going anywhere soon, even if an alternative system is feasible. My query is based on the desire to combine the benefits of third rail and 25kV and produce a visually-unobtrusive result. If the whole concept is wildly impractical just say so rather than waste your time explaining why here - I can take it!
BTW - something can't be "relatively unique" - there, that's off my chest!
 

Taunton

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
12,220
What was the alternative? Extend AC south to some other single point of failure, or extend south to more points on the different T/L branches, in amongst the rest of the third rail area?
Although Thameslink was stuck with two different systems north and south, so there must be a changeover somewhere, Farringdon was a poor location for it. I've seen it suggested that Kentish Town, with a 4-track platform arrangement and the ability to isolate electrically a track with a problem train would have been more resilient for such a high output route.

The GN 313s have a better chance because if there's a problem at Drayton Park some service can be diverted to Kings Cross.

The (unfortunately) less-than-stellar performance and regular suspensions of the London Overground seems to owe something to supply system changeover issues.

The only highly publicised incident since the changed operating arrangements started (i.e. northbound changeover is now at City T/L) was an issue with a southbound 319 where one of the pans failed to lower.
Do bear in mind that the calamitous evening breakdown a few years ago in the tunnel at Kentish Town started with a changeover problem. I'm not saying these issues would all happen, but surely it's a risk which the present DC network doesn't have and which should be avoided by keeping clear of changeover points.

I think many of the issues above are from a Network Rail, only, perspective rather than an overall system one. There will still be substations, in fact many more, they are just transferred from NR's lineside to the TOC's train equipment. Regarding 3rd rail equipment being bespoke to the old SR, that's just not correct, there are a substantial number of Metros all round the world which happily use it and buy mainstream kit from manufacturers, and manage to have perfectly reliable signalling.

Track layouts under 25Kv always seem to have to be far more set in stone and unalterable, whether for points, superelevation, or whatever, than in 3rd rail land.
 
Last edited:

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
Track layouts under 25Kv always seem to have to be far more set in stone and unalterable, whether for points, superelevation, or whatever, than in 3rd rail land.

It depends on the method of electrification. Headspans have that effect, portals, twin track cantilevers and single track cantilevers don't, which is why the layout at Manchester Victoria has already been changed for the Ordsall Chord, despite only being completed a few months ago.
 

hulabaloo

Member
Joined
5 Apr 2015
Messages
133
Could I be as bold as to mention that third rails are limited to 100mph running as well as all the other disadvantages so excellently laid out by PP? I'm sure there are stretches on the southern network that could run faster under wires.
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
One thing I have never seen discussed is the possibility of 25kV at third rail level - i.e. a micro-pantograph in place of shoegear and a high-tension (I mean physical rather than electrical tension) live cable in place of the third rail. The safety risk would seem to be similar for each - touch it and you fry, albeit more thoroughly in the case of 25kV. The other immediate issue I can see is flashovers at the much higher voltage. I'm no electrical person, so most or all of what I have written may be nonsense. I also realise that the OHLE around the country will not be going anywhere soon, even if an alternative system is feasible. My query is based on the desire to combine the benefits of third rail and 25kV and produce a visually-unobtrusive result. If the whole concept is wildly impractical just say so rather than waste your time explaining why here - I can take it!
BTW - something can't be "relatively unique" - there, that's off my chest!

Suggestions for alternatives to "relatively unique" most welcome.

AC at high voltage, low current arcs, DC at low voltage, high current doesn't, that's why AC third rail can't be considered unfortunately.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,594
Location
Nottingham
Although Thameslink was stuck with two different systems north and south, so there must be a changeover somewhere, Farringdon was a poor location for it. I've seen it suggested that Kentish Town, with a 4-track platform arrangement and the ability to isolate electrically a track with a problem train would have been more resilient for such a high output route.

Extension of OLE to City Thameslink (in addition to third rail) is supposed to deal with that.

I think the logic is that if the changeover to third rail at Farringdon fails the train can carry on to City Thameslink on AC and reverse there back northwards. And if the changeover to OLE, which is now at City Thameslink, fails the train can reverse back towards Blackfriars. The Smithfield Sidings can also be used, but only for 8-car units and I don't know if they have OLE.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,458
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
Suggestions for alternatives to "relatively unique" most welcome.

AC at high voltage, low current arcs, DC at low voltage, high current doesn't, that's why AC third rail can't be considered unfortunately.

For "relatively unique", try "very unusual", "rare", "scarce", "uncommon", "one of very few", and similar.

I did wonder if the arcing issue might be the show-stopper there. BTW, I wasn't suggesting AC third rail, rather AC track-level cabling and micro-pantograph, but the arcing problem remains the same I suspect. Thanks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a resident and user of the NDL, I have to say that, unless the route is to become part of the strategic freight network (as was at one time proposed) its conversion to OHLE would seem to be a very distant prospect (i.e. 30 years or more hence), as so many other routes will be ahead of it in the hierarchy. While the mode of traction is important, the over-riding need on the line is for greater capacity - i.e. longer trains and/or an increased frequency (beyond the 3tph proposed for 2017). Platform lengthening should not be hugely costly, and may be cheaper than re-signalling (which would apparently be required for increased frequency above 3 tph).

Installation of third rail infill (notwithstanding its economics as set out by PP) would be likely to have a fair life expectancy. Otherwise, the route will have to remain diesel-operated for decades, unless battery/fuel cell technology advances far enough to provide a reliable and efficient alternative in that time.

On the subject of the wider conversion from third rail to OHLE, I find it hard to imagine the gigantic scale of disruption and cost involved - just thinking of the approaches to the various London termini alone is a staggering concept.

However, it wouldn't be the first time - thinking back to the relatively short-lived OHLE of the suburban routes that were converted to third rail in the early 20th century.
 
Last edited:

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
As a resident and user of the NDL, I have to say that, unless the route is to become part of the strategic freight network (as was at one time proposed) its conversion to OHLE would seem to be a very distant prospect (i.e. 30 years or more hence), as so many other routes will be ahead of it in the hierarchy.

The hierarchy for 3rd rail conversion is based on when the equipment becomes life expired (as well as passenger numbers etc) so once the lines around it start to go over, it would follow quite soon after.

Installation of third rail infill (notwithstanding its economics as set out by PP) would be likely to have a fair life expectancy. Otherwise, the route will have to remain diesel-operated for decades, unless battery/fuel cell technology advances far enough to provide a reliable and efficient alternative in that time.
But would it be a long enough life expectancy to justify it's installation. As PP says, a lot of the route would need to be fitted with new sleepers to accommodate the pots and third rail - something that you want to avoid if the sleepers aren't becoming life expired. I wonder if the route could provide a use for some of the Meridians that find themselves jobless in a few years time.

On the subject of the wider conversion from third rail to OHLE, I find it hard to imagine the gigantic scale of disruption and cost involved - just thinking of the approaches to the various London termini alone is a staggering concept.

It is going to be disruptive - that is for certain. But do you do it now, or do you keep putting it off until passenger levels are at record highs causing even more disruption (and thus cost)?
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
As a resident and user of the NDL, I have to say that, unless the route is to become part of the strategic freight network (as was at one time proposed) its conversion to OHLE would seem to be a very distant prospect.

CP7 (2024-2029) was the 'dates' proposed last year, I'd suggest CP8 is now more realistic given the other work that has been re-arranged in the area.

The HOPS train will need something to do before heading to Booths, unfortunately.
 

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
9,661
But would it be a long enough life expectancy to justify it's installation. As PP says, a lot of the route would need to be fitted with new sleepers to accommodate the pots and third rail - something that you want to avoid if the sleepers aren't becoming life expired. I wonder if the route could provide a use for some of the Meridians that find themselves jobless in a few years time.

The substations certainly are not cheap on a 30 year life span either.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,274
As a resident and user of the NDL, I have to say that, unless the route is to become part of the strategic freight network (as was at one time proposed) its conversion to OHLE would seem to be a very distant prospect (i.e. 30 years or more hence), as so many other routes will be ahead of it in the hierarchy.

While the Turbos are pretty robust mechanically and will be around for quite some time, I can't see them being expected solider on into their mid-50s, so unless a strategic decision to electrify is taken sooner, the need to replace the 166s may well determine the point at which they have to bite the electrification bullet. Alternatively, other bits of future electrification, eliminating other Reading dmu duties, may leave the North Downs sets as an isolated, ageing and expensive-to-maintain micro-fleet that it would be easier to replace with emus
 
Last edited:

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,458
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
The hierarchy for 3rd rail conversion is based on when the equipment becomes life expired (as well as passenger numbers etc) so once the lines around it start to go over, it would follow quite soon after.


But would it be a long enough life expectancy to justify it's installation. As PP says, a lot of the route would need to be fitted with new sleepers to accommodate the pots and third rail - something that you want to avoid if the sleepers aren't becoming life expired. I wonder if the route could provide a use for some of the Meridians that find themselves jobless in a few years time.



It is going to be disruptive - that is for certain. But do you do it now, or do you keep putting it off until passenger levels are at record highs causing even more disruption (and thus cost)?

All fair points - I'm not necessarily saying that third rail should happen on the NDL, just that it probably wouldn't have the tiny life some have claimed. Any traction mode change options are very problematical.

Incidentally, a whole-life business case (however desirable) need not always be the over-riding determinant - I'm thinking of the obvious Waterloo International example - closed and moth-balled for years after exactly 13 years' use, and only now finding some potential future use after expensive further work has been carried out.

With the advance in plastics technology, do sleepers really need to be replaced to fit third rail, or could a robust and effective plastic bolt-on bracket be developed that would allow existing sleepers to accept the pots? I've not heard of one, but I don't see why it couldn't be designed and brought in fairly cheaply.
 

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,886
Location
Cambridge, UK
On the subject of the wider conversion from third rail to OHLE, I find it hard to imagine the gigantic scale of disruption and cost involved - just thinking of the approaches to the various London termini alone is a staggering concept.

However, it wouldn't be the first time - thinking back to the relatively short-lived OHLE of the suburban routes that were converted to third rail in the early 20th century.

Also, although it was a 'system' conversion using the existing OHLE, in 1960 the whole of the then-existing 1500V DC electrification out of Liverpool Street was converted to AC (at 6.25kV, later slowly converted to 25kV) and at least some of the DC EMU stock converted to AC as well. The Manchester-Altrincham line has gone from DC to AC to DC over the years...
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
It is going to be disruptive - that is for certain. But do you do it now, or do you keep putting it off until passenger levels are at record highs causing even more disruption (and thus cost)?

Recent experience, installing new booms on the GEML and doing the headspan conversions on the GWML suggest (fingers firmly crossed) we could do the piling, steelwork erection and SPS/wiring with little or no disruption.

The trackwork is so complex around Waterloo, Clapham Junction, London Bridge that electrification could only be completed using enormous portals and cantilever structures. They're the least disruptive to install though, just 2 piles (4 for anchor booms and some of the longer variants) at the side of the trackbed, two masts (plus two braces, if needed) and the boom is lifted into place, it doesn't even need to be bolted into place, so no cherry pickers or other on track plant needed.

There are a number of lines where part of the steelwork erection could be done without having to close the lines too, with access from street level rather than via the railway.
 

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,886
Location
Cambridge, UK
While the Turbos are pretty robust mechanically and will be around for quite some time, I can't see them being expected solider on into their mid-50s, so unless a strategic decision to electrify is taken sooner, the need to replace the 166s may well determine the point at which they have to bite the electrification bullet. Alternatively, other bits of future electrification, eliminating other Reading dmu duties, may leave the North Downs sets as an isolated, ageing and expensive-to-maintain micro-fleet that it would be easier to replace with emus

I agree - that was how BR justified some smaller electrification schemes e.g. Cambridge and Kings Lynn. Instead of replacing the rolling stock, they spent the money on (done cheaply in stages) electrification and 'stretched' the existing EMU fleet to cover it - a 'win-win' situation.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,229
With the advance in plastics technology, do sleepers really need to be replaced to fit third rail, or could a robust and effective plastic bolt-on bracket be developed that would allow existing sleepers to accept the pots? I've not heard of one, but I don't see why it couldn't be designed and brought in fairly cheaply.

Many of the sleepers between Wokingham and Ash are already third rail capable, (as are some of the sleepers on the new relief side of Reading station). They may have been fitting them for some years during routine renewals on the off chance, sleepers with the cast in female fittings are probably only trivially more expensive when ordered new.

They already fit vertically adjustable plastic bolt on insulators to support the third rail nowadays (although people still call them 'pots') - AFAICS they only need four jig drilled holes - it's potentially little different except for sheer scale to drilling and plugging a sleeper to fit a balise, or any other of the various signalling items mounted in the four foot nowadays.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,594
Location
Nottingham
Does any of the route have steel sleepers? I understand these are not allowed in third rail areas, although given that the third rail sits on insulators I'm not exactly sure why.

Not saying it would make third rail viable on the North Downs, but one option for new substations that might have a short lifetime could be to make them relocatable like many signalling equipment rooms. When no longer required they could then be moved to somewhere else where for one reason or another immediate OLE conversion was not possible but the existing substations were life-expired.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,229
Not saying it would make third rail viable on the North Downs, but one option for new substations that might have a short lifetime could be to make them relocatable like many signalling equipment rooms.

The traction strengthening (for the Desiros and Electrostars) equipment at the lineside was mostly provided in relocatable modules. (At least from my viewpoint on the SWML.) The newer equipment compounds are fairly regular features between Basingstoke and Southampton for instance.

There's a couple of dozen new relocatable traction 'boxes' sitting in the yard alongside Fareham station as I write, although I don't know where they are going next.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
8,236
Does any of the route have steel sleepers? I understand these are not allowed in third rail areas, although given that the third rail sits on insulators I'm not exactly sure why.

The return current through the running rails isn't grounded so the rails sit on insulated pads on concrete sleepers to prevent localised earth leakage
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The traction strengthening (for the Desiros and Electrostars) equipment at the lineside was mostly provided in relocatable modules. (At least from my viewpoint on the SWML.) The newer equipment compounds are fairly regular features between Basingstoke and Southampton for instance.

There's a couple of dozen new relocatable traction 'boxes' sitting in the yard alongside Fareham station as I write, although I don't know where they are going next.

Exactly and they could be relocated to other area upon OHLE conversion to replace existing substations / TP huts in areas not being converted at that time which helps the economics of OHLE conversion...
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
7,458
Location
Gomshall, Surrey
Recent experience, installing new booms on the GEML and doing the headspan conversions on the GWML suggest (fingers firmly crossed) we could do the piling, steelwork erection and SPS/wiring with little or no disruption.

The trackwork is so complex around Waterloo, Clapham Junction, London Bridge that electrification could only be completed using enormous portals and cantilever structures. They're the least disruptive to install though, just 2 piles (4 for anchor booms and some of the longer variants) at the side of the trackbed, two masts (plus two braces, if needed) and the boom is lifted into place, it doesn't even need to be bolted into place, so no cherry pickers or other on track plant needed.

There are a number of lines where part of the steelwork erection could be done without having to close the lines too, with access from street level rather than via the railway.

Wow - they'll be impressive. Also fun to see how Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Victoria, Thameslink core, etc., will be tackled, including the Thames bridges. Boom times for catenary manufacturers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does any of the route have steel sleepers? I understand these are not allowed in third rail areas, although given that the third rail sits on insulators I'm not exactly sure why.

Not saying it would make third rail viable on the North Downs, but one option for new substations that might have a short lifetime could be to make them relocatable like many signalling equipment rooms. When no longer required they could then be moved to somewhere else where for one reason or another immediate OLE conversion was not possible but the existing substations were life-expired.

No steel sleepers that I have ever noticed - almost certainly not a significant number.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
34,229
Wow - they'll be impressive. Also fun to see how Charing Cross, Cannon Street, Victoria, Thameslink core, etc., will be tackled, including the Thames bridges. Boom times for catenary manufacturers.

There'll be hardly visible micro-booms available by then, developed for the Goring Gap. Or holographic sky hooks...
 

Philip Phlopp

Established Member
Joined
31 May 2015
Messages
3,003
The newer equipment compounds are fairly regular features between Basingstoke and Southampton for instance.

That's one of the reasons why Basingstoke to Southampton was chosen for the pilot scheme, lots of good quality equipment that can be recovered for re-use elsewhere.

It's also one of the routes with the largest transmission and distribution losses, from memory, only the section out to Weymouth is worse but it really was a budget installation, and I don't believe there's much more strengthening work possible on the network in the area either.

There was also a suggestion from permanent way that they might be able to do something with the linespeed between Southampton and Basingstoke, 110mph might have been achievable if there was more power available and the appropriate modifications were made to the Desiro fleet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top