Non-stop split with ranger - diversion

[Shotton]

Hi everyone.

Currently in a bit of a weird situation, I am travelling on 1H72 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C31644/2024-09-15/detailed#allox_id=0 from Euston to Crewe with a non-stop split of a super off peak day return to Northampton and a West Midlands Day Ranger which is valid under condition 14.3.

However, despite the Avanti website stating trains would be diverted via Northampton all day Sunday, the train in actuality did not go via Northampton, instead going via Weedon (just passed Rugby ~ 20 minutes early). No announcements were made about this (though, I guess they wouldn't really be necessary).

Am I correct in believing that my split is still be valid? Would the position be different if it had been announced at any point that the train was no longer going via Northampton.

Thanks.

 

[redreni]

Am I correct in believing that my split is still be valid?

In my humble opinion, yes, if you relied on an authoritative source (in this case Avanti) telling you your train was going to pass through the split point.

Would the position be different if it had been announced at any point that the train was no longer going via Northampton.

Yes, I think so, potentially. Depends when it was announced, whether you had aready bought your tickets and whether you had time in which you might reasonably have been expected to do anything about it.

 

[Shotton]

Thank you for your response - I took a screenshot of the Avanti website (more in case somebody didn't realise trains were going via Northampton, rather then if the train actually didn't). Out of curiosity is there an official source which displays the full WTT? I believe RealTimeTrains isn't "official", but I was wondering if there was a way to find similar information which is.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone.

Currently in a bit of a weird situation, I am travelling on 1H72 https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C31644/2024-09-15/detailed#allox_id=0 from Euston to Crewe with a non-stop split of a super off peak day return to Northampton and a West Midlands Day Ranger which is valid under condition 14.3.

However, despite the Avanti website stating trains would be diverted via Northampton all day Sunday, the train in actuality did not go via Northampton, instead going via Weedon (just passed Rugby ~ 20 minutes early). No announcements were made about this (though, I guess they wouldn't really be necessary).

Am I correct in believing that my split is still be valid? Would the position be different if it had been announced at any point that the train was no longer going via Northampton.

Thanks.

Although I have no doubt that you have already thought about this, if your ticket is checked before Stafford (after where there can be no doubt at all of the validity of your ticket) then it is important not to fail the attitude test. So be proactive in engaging with the ticket inspector, explaining politely that (like you have said to us) as the train was scheduled to run via Northampton you expected the ticket to be valid, and just because it didn’t take that route you assume that nothing has changed.

 

[Shotton]

Although I have no doubt that you have already thought about this, if your ticket is checked before Stafford (after where there can be no doubt at all of the validity of your ticket) then it is important not to fail the attitude test. So be proactive in engaging with the ticket inspector, explaining politely that (like you have said to us) as the train was scheduled to run via Northampton you expected the ticket to be valid, and just because it didn’t take that route you assume that nothing has changed.

Thank you - I had considered this - my ticket ended up not being checked at all on board, this was also the case on the morning train (which did go via Northampton as booked).

The only ticket check I had was before boarding at Euston where I needed to explain politely both condition 14.3 and the fact that the West Midlands Day Ranger was for the geographical area of the West Midlands, not West Midlands railway - however, contrary to my expectations, the staff were polite and happy to accept my explanation, one of them even commented that you learn something new everyday.

 

[redreni]

[...] the staff were polite and happy to accept my explanation, one of them even commented that you learn something new everyday.

That is heartening.

Maybe top brass has finally realised Euston has an image problem? Who knows, if the PR issues related to the station persist then maybe they'll even fix the water dispenser and and reinstate departure boards that can be seen from anywhere on the concourse or mezzanine!

 

[Shotton]

That is heartening.

Maybe top brass has finally realised Euston has an image problem? Who knows, if the PR issues related to the station persist then maybe they'll even fix the water dispenser and and reinstate departure boards that can be seen from anywhere on the concourse or mezzanine!

Baby steps

I was a little disappointed to find that not only did they replace the water refill point with one that I believe may charge for certain options (but hopefully still will offer a free option unlike the Marylebone one), it also wasn't working.

Made use of free water in Wetherspoons alongside a spoons breakfast!

 

[redreni]

Baby steps

I was a little disappointed to find that not only did they replace the water refill point with one that I believe may charge for certain options (but hopefully still will offer a free option unlike the Marylebone one), it also wasn't working.

Made use of free water in Wetherspoons alongside a spoons breakfast!

Sorry to the mods to drift o/t, but Camden Council runs quite a successful free drinking water refill scheme which the Euston Starbucks, Cafe Nero and (I think) Pret participate in.

I don't want to give Network Rail too hard a time - it's good that they dropped the 30p toilet charge and introduced free water refills. Given that all you need is a tap, however, it's frustrating that they've overcomplicated the water refill points in a way that impacts their reliability. The one at Paddington was out of service due to being on the blue screen of death when I passed through a couple of weeks ago.

 

[TUC]

Sorry to the mods to drift o/t, but Camden Council runs quite a successful free drinking water refill scheme which the Euston Starbucks, Cafe Nero and (I think) Pret participate in.

I don't want to give Network Rail too hard a time - it's good that they dropped the 30p toilet charge and introduced free water refills. Given that all you need is a tap, however, it's frustrating that they've overcomplicated the water refill points in a way that impacts their reliability. The one at Paddington was out of service due to being on the blue screen of death when I passed through a couple of weeks ago.

Can you help the uninitiated understand? How does a blue screen of death relate to a water dispenser?

 

[redreni]

Can you help the uninitiated understand? How does a blue screen of death relate to a water dispenser?

These particular water dispensers only dispense water when you select an option using the touchscreen display. So if the touchscreen display is at the blue screen of death, the dispenser won't work.

 

[Shotton]

Sorry to the mods to drift o/t, but Camden Council runs quite a successful free drinking water refill scheme which the Euston Starbucks, Cafe Nero and (I think) Pret participate in.

I don't want to give Network Rail too hard a time - it's good that they dropped the 30p toilet charge and introduced free water refills. Given that all you need is a tap, however, it's frustrating that they've overcomplicated the water refill points in a way that impacts their reliability. The one at Paddington was out of service due to being on the blue screen of death when I passed through a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks for mentioning the water scheme - I was unaware and that's very useful to know.

I noticed the machine did have a barcode for "touchless refills" which *may* allow for use whilst the screen is broken, but still not ideal. Much prefer simple water machines rather than ones that are profiteering (sorry for continuing the o/t).

 

[Watershed]

Coming back to the question on ticket validity, it would be unusual for any announcement to be made as to a change of routing via Weedon vs Northampton; in any case the guard may be unaware until after turning "left" at Hanslope Jn. If such an announcement were made at a point where you could still get off the train before Milton Keynes, some staff may claim this means you are required to get off and wait for a train that is indeed running via Northampton. I would suggest that this is both unreasonable and not legally required.

Your tickets were valid for the train's planned routing and the Routeing Guide states:

ENGINEERING WORK, DIVERSIONS AND SERVICE DISRUPTION
The Routeing Guide has been produced using the published rail timetable and fares data. It therefore takes into account all route variations allowed that have been notified, (normally these
will result in a dated positive easement being published in Section E). On occasions due to short notice engineering work and disruption, services may be diverted from their normal routes or customers asked to use alternative routes. In these circumstances operators will make special provision to allow extra permitted routes. They will advise other operators and retailers of the extra provisions made to convey customers by routes other than those which are normally permitted. This provision will also apply to connecting services which are not directly affected. Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at. This does not apply to additional stops on the diversionary route, unless specially advised or they are on the permitted route for the journey being made.

Whilst technically there is a difference between the permitted routes for a given ticket, and the permitted routes for a particular set of split tickets, I think they are sufficiently closely connected that the above "easements" can be applied to both.

That is aside from the implications under consumer and contract law. These are highly unlikely involve a train company being permitted to (effectively) unilaterally change the bargain after you've bought your ticket, by deciding that you can no longer use the train you planned to take (bearing in mind you relied upon the advertised diversion when buying your ticket).

 

[Shotton]

Coming back to the question on ticket validity, it would be unusual for any announcement to be made as to a change of routing via Weedon vs Northampton; in any case the guard may be unaware until after turning "left" at Hanslope Jn. If such an announcement were made at a point where you could still get off the train before Milton Keynes, some staff may claim this means you are required to get off and wait for a train that is indeed running via Northampton. I would suggest that this is both unreasonable and not legally required.

Your tickets were valid for the train's planned routing and the Routeing Guide states:

Whilst technically there is a difference between the permitted routes for a given ticket, and the permitted routes for a particular set of split tickets, I think they are sufficiently closely connected that the above "easements" can be applied to both.

That is aside from the implications under consumer and contract law. These are highly unlikely involve a train company being permitted to (effectively) unilaterally change the bargain after you've bought your ticket, by deciding that you can no longer use the train you planned to take (bearing in mind you relied upon the advertised diversion when buying your ticket).

Thank you for this detailed response - I had not read that section of the routing guide, very helpful and would hopefully be taken to apply to the split ticket situation.