Non-standard NSE liveries

[frankmoh]

A question for people more well-versed in old train liveries than me. Why did these trains specifically have different liveries compared to a "standard" NSE livery?

The Class 456, with a very liberal application of grey at the front.

Conversely, the Class 465, with absolutely no grey on it at all.

This Class 121 refuses to have angles on its livery and opts for simples lines. That would be fine...

...except this very similar train, the Class 117 has a "normal" NSE livery.

This all seems a bit ad-hoc for a company that was so dedicated on everything being branded in Network Southeast (y'know, painting all the lampposts and chairs red, so on and so forth).

 

[StephenHunter]

I must admit that when I was a child, I called the Class 319 "Terrorist Train".

 

[JonathanH]

With the 121 it was felt that painting them 'with angles' would look odd, as they would have one at both ends.

I think the 456 got grey ends because they would work with 455s. The similar 321s got white ends.

319/0s had grey ends, while 319/1s had white ends.

Networkers were the first NSE designed train, and therefore the livery was adapted to suit their rounded ends.

 

[Russel]

I forgot how ugly the 456's were.

 

[frankmoh]

Networkers were the first NSE designed train, and therefore the livery was adapted to suit their rounded ends.

I thought the 442 or the 321 were the first trains built for NSE? Or do you specifically mean Network SouthEast's SouthEast sector? (truly wonderful naming there)

 

[StephenHunter]

I thought the 442 or the 321 were the first trains built for NSE? Or do you specifically mean Network SouthEast's SouthEast sector? (truly wonderful naming there)

Were the 319s ordered before NSE was created then>

 

[JonathanH]

I thought the 442 or the 321 were the first trains built for NSE? Or do you specifically mean Network SouthEast's SouthEast sector? (truly wonderful naming there)

I mean the first trains which weren't an adaptation of an existing design.

317/2s were in the process of being delivered as NSE was created. 319s, 321s, 442s and 456s arrived new to NSE but were based on the existing Mk3 designs. 165s, 166s, 465s were specifically designed, developed and ordered for NSE.

 

[thedbdiboy]

There were several iterations of NSE livery.

The 'launch' livery in 1986 had a lighter blue, the 'upsweeps' at the ends of units had hard angles rather than radiused curves, and the double arrow appeared as well. The original logo as used on posters etc had a double arrow to the left of Network SouthEast and the rhomboids were formed into the strapline below. The lower part of the livery was mid/dark grey for ordinary trains, and very light grey for premium trains - that is why the 442 Wessex Electrics had the lighter grey.

The lighter blue did not weather well so was changed to a darker blue colour. The Multiple Unit livery was tweaked so that the the upsweeps were curved at the angle and the double arrow logo was dropped. 319/0s got mid/dark grey lower bands, whilst the 319/1s with First Class got the very light grey. 456s were inner suburban standard class only trains so got dark grey, but Networkers (which were delivered late in the NSE era) got lighter grey even though they were also Standard Class inner suburban units presumably because they were next generation units that represented the future. It's no different really to Blue Grey, which started life as the premium InterCity livery and ended up on practically everything.

The most problematic application was on locos and single units. The 'upsweeps were designed to bookend a train and frankly didn't work on a single vehicle - hauled coaches did not have upsweeps and their use of 47s, 50s and 86 401 didn't really work, so a revised loco livery without them was eventually agreed (and looked much better). 121s fell into the single vehicle category and were painted as per coaches but with yellow ends.

Of course the piecemeal way this was applied meant that there was little obvious logic 'out in the field' and 30 years on it's unsurprising that its is even harder to divine.

 

[317362]

Some single cars did appear with a sweep at each end too, like this one, not my pic. They looked very odd! https://www.flickr.com/photos/137766734@N08/52667254686

 

[frankmoh]

A question for people more well-versed in old train liveries than me. Why did these trains specifically have different liveries compared to a "standard" NSE livery?

The Class 456, with a very liberal application of grey at the front.

Conversely, the Class 465, with absolutely no grey on it at all.

This Class 121 refuses to have angles on its livery and opts for simples lines. That would be fine...

...except this very similar train, the Class 117 has a "normal" NSE livery.

This all seems a bit ad-hoc for a company that was so dedicated on everything being branded in Network Southeast (y'know, painting all the lampposts and chairs red, so on and so forth).Sources for the images that I am obligated to link:

Photo links I have added.
456 - https://www.flickr.com/photos/10152260@N05/49585713227
465 - picture is gone for some reason, similar pictures can be found at http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/features/liveries/465liv/index.html
121 - https://www.mattypsrailwaypics.com/class-121-dmu.html
117 - https://www.flickr.com/photos/16867856@N07/51081179783

 

[Transilien]

There were several iterations of NSE livery.

The 'launch' livery in 1986 had a lighter blue, the 'upsweeps' at the ends of units had hard angles rather than radiused curves, and the double arrow appeared as well. The original logo as used on posters etc had a double arrow to the left of Network SouthEast and the rhomboids were formed into the strapline below. The lower part of the livery was mid/dark grey for ordinary trains, and very light grey for premium trains - that is why the 442 Wessex Electrics had the lighter grey.

The lighter blue did not weather well so was changed to a darker blue colour. The Multiple Unit livery was tweaked so that the the upsweeps were curved at the angle and the double arrow logo was dropped. 319/0s got mid/dark grey lower bands, whilst the 319/1s with First Class got the very light grey. 456s were inner suburban standard class only trains so got dark grey, but Networkers (which were delivered late in the NSE era) got lighter grey even though they were also Standard Class inner suburban units presumably because they were next generation units that represented the future. It's no different really to Blue Grey, which started life as the premium InterCity livery and ended up on practically everything.

The most problematic application was on locos and single units. The 'upsweeps were designed to bookend a train and frankly didn't work on a single vehicle - hauled coaches did not have upsweeps and their use of 47s, 50s and 86 401 didn't really work, so a revised loco livery without them was eventually agreed (and looked much better). 121s fell into the single vehicle category and were painted as per coaches but with yellow ends.

Of course the piecemeal way this was applied meant that there was little obvious logic 'out in the field' and 30 years on it's unsurprising that its is even harder to divine.

I always wonder why NSE got rid of the double arrow later on their livery. I think it detracts from the idea of ’one` railway under BR.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I forgot how ugly the 456's were.

When the Southern Region's tradition of exposed cabling meets the late 80s trend of flat slanted cab ends. Truly a unique look (thankfully!).

 

[Russel]

Some single cars did appear with a sweep at each end too, like this one, not my pic. They looked very odd! https://www.flickr.com/photos/137766734@N08/52667254686

I actually think that looks like a big improvement!

When the Southern Region's tradition of exposed cabling meets the late 80s trend of flat slanted cab ends. Truly a unique look (thankfully!).

What was the reasoning behind the exposed cabling?

 

[Helvellyn]

What was the reasoning behind the exposed cabling?

The 456s were built to operate in multiple with the earlier 137 455 units (74 455/8; 43 455/7; 20 455/9), which had built with multiple working cables mounted on the front-end in a reversion to earlier practice after the use of automatic couplers on the 508s wasn't deemed a success.

The 455s of course had end gangways; the 456s did not!

 

[JonathanH]

The 455s of course had end gangways; the 456s did not!

It wasn't worth returning to the 455 cab end, or designing a new one, given the small order.

 

[frankmoh]

On a related note, I would like to know what the last train to get painted in the NSE livery was. Maybe a 365? Or perhaps in the very early stages a 168 was in the middle of being painted in NSE colours?

 

[thedbdiboy]

I always wonder why NSE got rid of the double arrow later on their livery. I think it detracts from the idea of ’one` railway under BR.

It was in parallel with Intercity rebranding with the Swift/Swallow logo. Of the passenger businesses only Regional Railways retained a tiny double arrow in the motif.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2025 ==

Some single cars did appear with a sweep at each end too, like this one, not my pic. They looked very odd! https://www.flickr.com/photos/137766734@N08/52667254686

It's got the double arrow logo so must have been an earlier application before upsweeps were dropped for single vehicles

 

[nlogax]

When the Southern Region's tradition of exposed cabling meets the late 80s trend of flat slanted cab ends. Truly a unique look (thankfully!).

I've always been interested in BR's decision to stick with external jumper cables on Southern stock in spite of PEP and PEP-derived units swanning around the region with Scharfenberg and Tightlock up to the end of the previous decade.

 

[43096]

I've always been interested in BR's decision to stick with external jumper cables on Southern stock in spite of PEP and PEP-derived units swanning around the region with Scharfenberg and Tightlock up to the end of the previous decade.

The Southern was inherently conservative. See also the continued building of Mark 1 pattern units (VEP, CIG and REP) well into the 1970s.

 

[Sun Chariot]

@JonathanH and @thedbdiboy
Re: class 121 NSE livery application. I recall DMBS 55022 had upswept stripes at each end (original NSE blue / non-radiussed upsweep / red BR logo behind each cab door.
Here's an image of it, on Martin Loader's Honda Wanderer photo site:

55022, 59510 & 51400 Culham 27 May 1989

 

[SeanG]

It wasn't worth returning to the 455 cab end, or designing a new one, given the small order.

Wasn't the 465 cab a new design though, so a new one was designed?
Or is it the same cab as a 321, just looks different due to the jumpers?

 

[JonathanH]

Wasn't the 465 cab a new design though, so a new one was designed?
Or is it the same cab as a 321, just looks different due to the jumpers?

The 456 front end was basically the same as the 321 but with jumpers, and different light placement as a result.