"Non-Pointless Journeys"

[krus_aragon]

How about a Manchester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth route, run by ATW?

That sounds like a good idea for the extra Aber-Shrewsbury trains on the forthcoming hourly service, but it would probably forego extending the Heart of Wales services to Crewe. Now if the stock could be found...

 

[Drsatan]

How about 1 or 2 Bournemouth to Dover services a day?

I'm not suggesting that anyone bar myself would atualy want to go Bournemouth/ Southampton to Dover that often but it is a right pain to go from this end to anywhere in Kent and obviously going through London costs.

Nice idea, but you'd have trouble finding paths and suitable traction. From Fareham to Brighton it would be very difficult to find paths because that line is so busy. To gain access to the East Coastway line, the train would have to cross all lines at Brighton, effectively stopping trains entering or leaving the station. Reversing at Eastbourne wouldn't be too problematic since the Ashford- Brighton service does that but reversing at Ashford International would because the latter station is so much busier.

The Marshlink line between Hastings (Ore) and Ashford isn't electrified (and probably won't be for some time) so DMUs would have to be used. One of SN's 170s could be used as they're already used on Marshlink trains but I've no idea whether they're cleared west of Southampton Central. The cost of driver training west of Southampton Central wouldn't be viable for two or three trains a day.

 

[wintonian]

I was thinking about calling at Brighton to change driver/ ends. However I am afraid you are most likely right and it would be too difficult to do.

 

[atomicdanny]

How about 1 or 2 Bournemouth to Dover services a day?

I'm not suggesting that anyone bar myself would atualy want to go Bournemouth/ Southampton to Dover that often but it is a right pain to go from this end to anywhere in Kent and obviously going through London costs.

edit - someone posted before me!

Just curious though but would that have to reverse about three times, once at Ashford International, then again at Eastbourne and then Brighton (unless its via redhill - 3rd rail that way!)

although I would have personally said something like a Cross Country Service from Dover - Birmingham or Manchester / or even Dover - Edinburgh (with a 395?), but I thing this would be mostly pointless though!

 

[Drsatan]

I was thinking about calling at Brighton to change driver/ ends. However I am afraid you are most likely right and it would be too difficult to do.

The train would have to call at Brighton anyway since there's no other way around unless the train goes via the North Downs line

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Nice idea, but you'd have trouble finding paths and suitable traction. From Fareham to Brighton it would be very difficult to find paths because that line is so busy. To gain access to the East Coastway line, the train would have to cross all lines at Brighton, effectively stopping trains entering or leaving the station. Reversing at Eastbourne wouldn't be too problematic since the Ashford- Brighton service does that but reversing at Ashford International would because the latter station is so much busier.

The Marshlink line between Hastings (Ore) and Ashford isn't electrified (and probably won't be for some time) so DMUs would have to be used. One of SN's 170s could be used as they're already used on Marshlink trains but I've no idea whether they're cleared west of Southampton Central. The cost of driver training west of Southampton Central wouldn't be viable for two or three trains a day.

Not necessarily! Bournemouth-Reading-Guildford-Redhill (rev.)-Tonbridge-Ashford (K)-Dover.

 

[thefab444]

Also of course xx12 only came to mind cos it's 30 mins away from the existing XC - it could be different. Following behind the Cardiff (on time at xx10) into P4 would be just as practical, and tipping out a whole train would be better there anyway.

Indeed, it would be arround xx12, but allow for a couple of minutes' of "end of journey" slack.

One of SN's 170s could be used as they're already used on Marshlink trains but I've no idea whether they're cleared west of Southampton Central

I don't think they're cleared west of Totton in passenger service, in fact I can't think of a time when they've ever actually gone west of Totton at all.

 

[atomicdanny]

Not necessarily! Bournemouth-Reading-Guildford-Redhill (rev.)-Tonbridge-Ashford (K)-Dover.

wouldn't the below be another way since this way it would all be 3rd rail?

Bournemouth - Southampton - (west coastway) - Hove - Redhill (Rev) - Tonbridge - Dover

or

Bournemouth - Southampton - (west coastway) - Horsham - Three Bridges - Redhill (Rev) - Tonbridge - Dover

 

[wintonian]

Shame you miss out Hastings and Eastbourne, but you do get the Gatwick service back and I'd still like to call at Brighton but hove is only short hop, so I'd go with it.

 

[Ricardo]

Nice idea, but you'd have trouble finding paths and suitable traction. From Fareham to Brighton it would be very difficult to find paths because that line is so busy. To gain access to the East Coastway line, the train would have to cross all lines at Brighton, effectively stopping trains entering or leaving the station. Reversing at Eastbourne wouldn't be too problematic since the Ashford- Brighton service does that but reversing at Ashford International would because the latter station is so much busier.

The Marshlink line between Hastings (Ore) and Ashford isn't electrified (and probably won't be for some time) so DMUs would have to be used. One of SN's 170s could be used as they're already used on Marshlink trains but I've no idea whether they're cleared west of Southampton Central. The cost of driver training west of Southampton Central wouldn't be viable for two or three trains a day.

You'd also have other problems with the reverse at Brighton. Entering from the Hove direction and exiting to the Lewes direction (and vice versa) is only possible from a single platform (P3). Further, the track layout means that the maximum length of train that can do this is (I think) restricted to 4 coaches- whether or not that might be a problem is debatable, but it would mean such a service would have very specific requirements for platforms and would be difficult to timetable robustly in the event of disruption or late running. There is also, as mentioned, the move across the entire layout east of P3 to access the east coastway line to contend with.

That said, back in the late 1990s/ early 2000s, when SEEDA (the South East England Development Agency- a quango not long for this world now) published a south east England transport study which included recommendations for investigation and implementation of a coastway express service between Southampton and Ashford. This idea ended up getting shot down in flames, partly off the back of the Brighton issue described, although I actually like the idea of a long-distance link along the coast, as the driving route along the A27 & A259 is pretty horrendous, and the alternative, taking in a fair chunk of the M25, isnt much better.

 

[Ivo]

Regarding a Bournemouth to Dover service, I wonder if there would be a case for extending further. An interesting possibility would be Poole; it may be within range of Bournemouth but a direct link to Poole would potentially allow for an unusual (if admittedly infrequent, but then so would be the service) array of ferry possibilities (Jersey to Calais avoiding paying "motorway tax" for instance). The same could be said of Weymouth as well, but that is probably taking it too far. As for the Brighton area, would it not be possible to call at Hove and then run fast to Haywards Heath, before reversing and heading south towards Lewes?

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The London - Leicester - Manchester was a great train while it ran and it would be good to see it return in some form.

Even if it was Derby to Manchester that would be a start, getting from the East Midlands to Manchester is slower than it needs to be.

Maybe after 2014 or when Network Rail collect the £2.64p that is allocated for improvments in the South Yorkshire/Derbyshire areas :roll:

 

[Ivo]

Don't put down the £2.64 contribution! You could electrify a full inch of the MML for that!

 

[The Planner]

That sounds like a good idea for the extra Aber-Shrewsbury trains on the forthcoming hourly service, but it would probably forego extending the Heart of Wales services to Crewe. Now if the stock could be found...

You would need more units to do it, and the chances of finding paths into Piccadilly wouldnt be exactly easy. Whats wrong with the connection at Shrewsbury ??

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Now, wouldn't it be nice for people from the Midlands heading for Kent / Channel ports if they could have an hourly direct semi-fast service:

Reading - Clapham Jct - Bromley South - Folkestone - Dover - Ramsgate

With all the usual main stopping points between Reading and CJ then a fairly fast run from Bromley South... In other words, re-instate a third Reading - Waterloo service ( there were 4 an hour for a while a few years ago so there should be track capacity ) but divert it to bypass London and run it through to the Channel ports. No struggling across London with the luggage! Huge time saving as well!

OK, it won't happen because it would abstract from the Paddington - Reading main line and there is the question of stock difference between SWT and SET, but....

Thoughts?

 

[The Planner]

Didnt XC used to run a Summer Saturday Ramsgate ??

 

[thefab444]

Yes, I think it was a diverted Paddington service. The morning run was from Wolverhampton to Ramsgate, and then the return was to Glasgow Central (IIRC). It called at Margate, Faversham, Chatham and Bromley South before Kensington Olympia.

 

[Failed Unit]

Didnt XC used to run a Summer Saturday Ramsgate ??

I think that it was a Deltic on the front some weekends as well,

If you look at the ex-princess XC network many non-pointless journeys have gone.

Under BR you had the 158 operated Liverpool & Manchester - Scotland,
Some wierd journeys like Blackpool North - Portsmouth

Edinburgh Waverley - Poole via Oxford
Glasgow - Penzance via WCML
Glasgow - Poole via WCML

I think we are all in agreement that the butchering of the XC network was probably not to the greater good of the passengers.

Anyone remember the orginal regional express network in the 1980's when 156's ran it.

Most were 2 hourly which when put together gave
Cambridge or Ipswich - Blackpool North (one per day to Barrow-in-Furness) via Derby
Norwich - Liverpool Lime Street via Alferton.
Norwich - Birmingham New Street
Cambridge or Ipswich - Birmingham New Street
Cleethorpes - Birmingham New Street via Lincoln and Derby (hourly from Lincoln - Birmingham) - although it rarely saw a 156, 154002 and 150001 both featured frequently the tolley service was never well used.
Cardiff - Portsmouth & Brighton (probably the only one that is simular to the day it started 155's operated this route)
Birmingham - Cardiff (operated via Kidderminster)
Cardiff - Manchester
Cardiff - Liverpool

The east Anglia services had extensions to Harwich and Colchester, it was possible to do Harwich - Liverpool on a 156 if you wanted. At the time apart from in the peaks the only express service between sheffeild and Manchester was the 156

 

[me123]

Glasgow - Penzance via WCML
Glasgow - Poole via WCML

These are really important routes. Crossing Glasgow out of the CrossCountry network (aside from two wonderful trains each day via the ECML) really has helped to isolate the city from the rest of the rail network. I think it's rather criminal that such an important city has all but lost such important rail links to the South West.

I know I'm biased, but I do think that the UK Intercity network is focussed far too much on Edinburgh as far as Scotland's concerned.

 

[thefab444]

One would hope that after the current West Coast franchise is over, thought would be put into reconnecting the Glasgow - Birmingham shuttles to the XC network.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know I'm biased, but I do think that the UK Intercity network is focussed far too much on Edinburgh as far as Scotland's concerned.

Is that simply because it is easier to change at Edinburgh for the rest of Scotland, I know I prefer to change a Edinburgh over Glasgow just because cross platform at Haymarket is always easier than a 10 minute walk between stations.

But I agree with your sentiments, why can Edinburgh support and hourly service to London and Glasgow can't (considering Glasgows catchment area is bigger as well). Who is really going to travel via the ECML to get to Bristol? Is XC really a better network now? I don't think so and I don't think the Scotland - Birmingham services are much better either. I think for a lot of the passengers the break up of Central and XC has been a bad thing.

Would having 1x XC train per hour to Scotland an 1x XC train per hour to Manchester really been such a bad thing. Manchester - Birmingham would be better served by London Midland or Northern for the other TPH using an EMU!

 

[route:oxford]

Is that simply because it is easier to change at Edinburgh for the rest of Scotland, I know I prefer to change a Edinburgh over Glasgow just because cross platform at Haymarket is always easier than a 10 minute walk between stations.

Whilst this sounds rather ridiculous, Queen Street (High Level) and Central transfers do have the advantage that they step-free. I do know people who'd rather make their own way using trolley-cases rather than play the last-minute announcement/platform change game with lifts & steps at Waverley/Haymarket. (There is the free transfer by bus too).

But I agree with your sentiments, why can Edinburgh support an hourly service to London and Glasgow can't (considering Glasgows catchment area is bigger as well). Who is really going to travel via the ECML to get to Bristol? Is XC really a better network now? I don't think so and I don't think the Scotland - Birmingham services are much better either. I think for a lot of the passengers the break up of Central and XC has been a bad thing.

The lack of Cross Country services via the WCML is purely for the reason of making the franchise system work, rather than to benefit passengers.

My personal opinion is that at next Franchise review, a new shell company should be created called "British Cross Country Trains Ltd". Using ORCATS data, shareholdings in the company should be divided up to the franchise operators of East Coast, West Coast, Western & Transport Scotland/Scotrail.

Shareholders via their respective board-members would be incentivised through sturdy financial and franchise commitments to embrace their BCCT partner and offer comprehensive through & advance purchase ticket arrangements to benefit the travelling public.

 

[Failed Unit]

Whilst this sounds rather ridiculous, Queen Street (High Level) and Central transfers do have the advantage that they step-free. I do know people who'd rather make their own way using trolley-cases rather than play the last-minute announcement/platform change game with lifts & steps at Waverley/Haymarket. (There is the free transfer by bus too).

Haymarket is probably the best change, but as you say no lifts at the moment. I know Central is step free but a platform change from 1 to 10 will be a lot slower than anything needed at Haymarket. The irony is that soon journey planners will be sending the Airdrie - London passengers vai Edinburgh.

 

[Greenback]

Changing stations in Glasgow is a mental block for the majority of people, though I accept there is a minority who prefer not having to deal with the lifts and steps at Waverley or Haymarket.

The removal of the XC services from the WCML was a disgrace. It seems as though DfT thinks that anyone from South Wales/the South West will only fly to Glasgow and the West of Scotland. Fortunately, we can still get to Glasgow via one change at Crewe, which has the pleasant side benefit of avoiding XC's overpriced and overcrowded trains!

While on the subject, I don't think that the lack of a through train is as much of a disincentive as people believe. I am firmly of the opinion that, with modern trains, it's nice to get out into the fresh air for a bit of a break! I don;t want to start an old vs new argument, but when I first started going by train you could get up, leave the compartment and stand in the corridor by an open window for a bit of a break. Now, the vestibules are normally full of people and/or luggage, and it's often impossible to even have a stroll down the train!

 

[tbtc]

These are really important routes. Crossing Glasgow out of the CrossCountry network (aside from two wonderful trains each day via the ECML) really has helped to isolate the city from the rest of the rail network. I think it's rather criminal that such an important city has all but lost such important rail links to the South West.

I know I'm biased, but I do think that the UK Intercity network is focussed far too much on Edinburgh as far as Scotland's concerned.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Glasgow has never had a better frequency of services to Manchester and to Birmingham (?)

I'd imagine that the vast majority of demand down the WCML from Glasgow is going to be to Lancashire (e.g. Preston/ Bolton/ Manchester), West Midlands (e.g. Wolverhampton/ Birmingham) and London.

Any unserved demand for through trains is more likely to be Glasgow - Liverpool or Glasgow - Blackpool rather than Glasgow - Poole or Glasgow - Penzance. Of course there will be some people wanting to do these kind of journeys, but realistically the railway is concentrating resources on the greatest demands. I still think there's scope for Liverpool trains (and Blackpool at the weekend) serving Glasgow though.
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Cardiff - Liverpool

One link that should never have been withdrawn IMHO - Liverpool has been one of the biggest losers from recent changes, and lost a lot of through routes.

Many of the other lost links were just services from one side of Birmingham to the other side, with little demand from end to end (are there many people from Arbroath who take the train to Truro?), and combinations of lots of little local services tagged onto each other to give a through train (that was still mainly used for "local" trips)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

why can Edinburgh support and hourly service to London and Glasgow can't (considering Glasgows catchment area is bigger as well)

...because the Glasgow service doesn't serve anywhere big on the way (Carlisle is tiny in the grand scheme of things - Preston/ Wigan are a reasonable size), whereas the Edinburgh service has Newcastle etc.

I don't think the Scotland - Birmingham services are much better either. I think for a lot of the passengers the break up of Central and XC has been a bad thing

Scotland to Birmingham is better now than its ever been; hourly via the ECML and hourly via the WCML.

It was never that good under BR (there were three a day via the ECML IIRC), and tended to have massive gaps (rather than the clockface reliability of today)

 

[Failed Unit]

Changing stations in Glasgow is a mental block for the majority of people, though I accept there is a minority who prefer not having to deal with the lifts and steps at Waverley or Haymarket.

I don't think it is a mental block to be honest, as someone that often has the choice it is down to the time taken.

For Glasgow I know I can walk between the stations in 10 minutes, so if I am at the front of the train I will fancy my chances. But I would plan to leave about 30 minutes between services to cover a reasonable delay. At Haymarket I know I can cross the bridge which is the worse I should ever need to do in 30 seconds. I normally factor about a 10 minute wait here. At Haymarket you don't care if it is raining, you do in Glasgow. Yes I know the free bus exists but it is a lot slower then walking.

I now don't bother with Glasgow for sleepers either, crossing Glasgow at the same time as the drunks and then having to stand on the platform until the train is ready is not as nice as sitting in a lounge at Waverley.

Not really a mental block, just a going for the nicer and safer experience.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

One link that should never have been withdrawn IMHO - Liverpool has been one of the biggest losers from recent changes, and lost a lot of through routes.

along with Lincoln as well that also has lost loads of useful services, although Liverpool has certainly suffered more, has DaFT got something against places starting with Li

Many of the other lost links were just services from one side of Birmingham to the other side, with little demand from end to end (are there many people from Arbroath who take the train to Truro?), and combinations of lots of little local services tagged onto each other to give a through train (that was still mainly used for "local" trips)

True, but how about Warrington - Bristol. It is like CT saying that demand was low for passengers travelling between Shrewsbury and Grimsby, yes it was buy people did travel from Liecester - Shrewsbury, or Nuneaton, Hinkley, Narborough and South Wigston - Nottingham or Loughborough - Birmingham,

Scotland to Birmingham is better now than its ever been; hourly via the ECML and hourly via the WCML.

It was never that good under BR (there were three a day via the ECML IIRC), and tended to have massive gaps (rather than the clockface reliability of today)

The hourly ECML service to Birmingham is really just an ORCAT's raid, it takes to long to get to Birmingham leave at 1603 arrive at 2120 or leave at 1620 and arrive at 2022? Not many are going to use XC. Yes it helps with Leeds - Edinburgh but it is just a waste of paths on the ECML in my opinion, most people prefer to travel on East Coast.

However for Edinburgh you can really do hourly to Birmingham via the WCML with the way the Manchester Airport trains often work. (Well certainly North bound)

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I couldn't think of the right phrase to use, mental block doesn't seem right at all!

Personally speaking, I have walked between Queen St and Central or vice versa many times. But if someone was going from the South East to somewhere like Stirlng, I think many would choose Edinburgh over Glasgow!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Mental Blocks you get them from your parents.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

Now, wouldn't it be nice for people from the Midlands heading for Kent / Channel ports if they could have an hourly direct semi-fast service:

Reading - Clapham Jct - Bromley South - Folkestone - Dover - Ramsgate

With all the usual main stopping points between Reading and CJ then a fairly fast run from Bromley South... In other words, re-instate a third Reading - Waterloo service ( there were 4 an hour for a while a few years ago so there should be track capacity ) but divert it to bypass London and run it through to the Channel ports.

Unfortunately the two Waterloo-Reading services per hour via the Hounslow loop, weren't abolished, but were instead diverted to Weybridge via Chertsey, so there may not be any additional paths east of Virginia Water for an additional service to Clapham Junction. (Prior to 2004? stations from Virginia Water to Weybridge was served by a half hourly shuttle off peak with through services to Waterloo only at peak times. As you rightly say back then there were four services per hour to Reading from Waterloo, two of which ran via Hounslow.)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Ah... but wasn't there already an hourly Weybridge via Chertsey before then anyway? Which would imply that one hourly path might at least still be available?

Certainly plenty of room on the SET part of the route with no Eurostars sharing and the reduced SET classic service!