"Non-Pointless Journeys"

[wintonian]

If Yeovil can have a Naval base (HMS Heron) then....

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Haven't you got something better to do like go and do some spotting on your minor halt.

I'm finding your sarcasm rather tedious. :roll:

 

[thefab444]

I think it was only 1 a day from New Milton anyway in the morning peak.

Strangely I don't remember the Portsmouth service, what time of day did that run?

From the 2001 TT, the trains at New Milton (and Christchurch) were at 0758 and 0858 to Victoria, and 0707, 0823, 1717 and 1817 to Bournemouth.

The POO - PMH service may have been cut earlier than 2003, possibly when the Lymington - Waterloo services were cut in about 1999 - 2000. In 1996 they were 0728 POO - PMH (all stations) and 1655 PMH - BMH (all stations to Brockenhurst then fast to Bournemouth).

 

[Ricardo]

From the 2001 TT, the trains at New Milton (and Christchurch) were at 0758 and 0858 to Victoria, and 0707, 0823, 1717 and 1817 to Bournemouth.

The POO - PMH service may have been cut earlier than 2003, possibly when the Lymington - Waterloo services were cut in about 1999 - 2000. In 1996 they were 0728 POO - PMH (all stations) and 1655 PMH - BMH (all stations to Brockenhurst then fast to Bournemouth).

I think you are right in thinking the Poole-Pompey services were cut prior to 2003- the late 90s sounds about right. A piece of nostalgia for some of you to look for: there is a sign at Swanwick station declaring "this platform for trains to [stations to Southampton], Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole and Wareham" so presumably back in the mists of time the direct Pompey-Poole went even further!

A few people here have talked of (re-) extending some SN services to Bournemouth. Conceivably the same thing could be done with the Portsmouth-Southampton stopping service, but for the lack of available stock.

The SN Bournemouth extension was pulled (as I recall) because of poor patronage, and I'm not convinced passenger growth from Soton to Bournemouth over the 6 (??) years since it was stopped might now justify it, even with the operational advantages that one less terminating train at Southampton Central would bring. Southern are less pressured for stock but it looks like their unit requirement will be increased by running the Southampton-Brighton via Eastleigh. My sources have suggested winter 2010 for this to take place (but only in one direction). It has been talked about for several years now, so if it's going to happen, I'm sure it will soon!

As far as an extra XC to Soton every 2 hours goes, well, purely on the basis of the chaos that the number of terminating trains at Soton Central causes at the moment (let alone adding any more), I'd refuse it, and send it to Portsmouth instead. May as well open up a new (well, proven old) market, and save on a load of disruption too....

 

[wintonian]

Ahh that’s right I sometimes used to get the 0858 to college.

Incidentally when was the LYP - BMH 2150ish train withdrawn, it was rather handy not having to change at Brock after a day in Lymington?

 

[me123]

Make that a Perth/Dunblane (or even Alloa) route to Carlisle via Cumbernauld & Motherwell.

Perth xx.00
Dunblane xx.26
Stirling xx.34
Larbert xx.41
Cumbernauld xx.54
Motherwell x1.16
Lockerbie x1.56
Carlisle x2.23

Would be fantastic for anyone from central Scotland heading to London/Brum.

As long as you were to add a Coatbridge Central stop in, I'd be happy. Coatbridge is a big community, and it continues to grow as the transport links improve. A service to Stirling in particular will help the town grow. You could also then have it replace the existing Motherwell-Cumbernauld shuttle.

That all said, I'd rather a Stirling-Hamilton service, as this would link up Lanarkshire and open up a large number of Scottish services, rather than focussing on getting them down to England, which I think would be a waste of units and valuable WCML paths.

 

[swt_passenger]

A few people here have talked of (re-) extending some SN services to Bournemouth. Conceivably the same thing could be done with the Portsmouth-Southampton stopping service, but for the lack of available stock.

However there are now three SWT (as well as the XC) services between Southampton and Brockenhurst, so even less need for a SN extension...

Southern are less pressured for stock but it looks like their unit requirement will be increased by running the Southampton-Brighton via Eastleigh. My sources have suggested winter 2010 for this to take place (but only in one direction). It has been talked about for several years now, so if it's going to happen, I'm sure it will soon!

Running the service on Sundays has been mentioned since the SN Brighton was first started, calling at the airport was being discussed publicly only after the DFT's new franchise announcement last May or June [deleted from their website unfortunately], but going through the SN franchise specs Dec 2010 has always been the start date for the extra Sunday service, so there has been NO delay there. As I mentioned earlier the one way nature of the service is specifically to allow it to be operated without extra rolling stock, this came from SN's PR people immediately following the announcement, but if more rolling stock was available to run both ways it would definitely be a better service - returning Eastleigh - Fareham to 2 tph would be useful for me...

As far as an extra XC to Soton every 2 hours goes, well, purely on the basis of the chaos that so terminating trains at Soton Central causes at the moment (let alone adding any more), I'd refuse it, and send it to Portsmouth instead. May as well open up a new (well, proven old) market, and save on a load of disruption too....

XC should arrive at xx12 ish, so platform 3b would be free for arrival, then shunt via the UGL perhaps? OTOH I'd have thought an amazingly off the wall destination could be Fareham P2 bay, with calls at Eastleigh.

 

[Greenback]

I'd like to see...
1) some XC Reading terminators extended to Paddington, Brighton (via Kensington O, East Croydon & Gatwick) and Portsmouth (via Guildford & Haslemere),
2) XC services from Birmingham to Manchester should be extended to Preston & beyond,
3) re-introduction of WCML services between Euston &/or Birmingham and Perth (& beyond), avoiding Glasgow and Edinburgh, replicating the old 'Clansman',
4) Euston - Preston - Lancaster services should go to Blackpool instead. IF the Con(lib)dem cuts DON'T affect the proposed electrification of Blackpool, this is perfectly feasible,
5) Milford Haven + Fishguard + Pembroke - Paddington services, M-F. There is a Pembroke - Paddington SO service, but I reckon there is some justification to make it M-F as well.

With regard to 5, there is adequate capacity on thee Pembroke Dock line with a 153. There isn't a great deal of traffic west of Carmarthen on most services, and the same goes for Milford Haven. I can't see how sending an HST down there would be at all justified!

 

[Ricardo]

However there are now three SWT (as well as the XC) services between Southampton and Brockenhurst, so even less need for a SN extension...

Indeed. The (rather weak) argument for an extension I was suggesting would be to free up platform and line capacity (which is 80-90% at certain times of day, ie no robust spare capacity) by turning a unit around somewhere else, rather than provide extra capacity which I appreciate isnt really needed...

Dont forget, lots more capacity for freight will be needed through Soton Central and up the SWML to Basingstoke in future, if ABP are to move 40% of container traffic by rail (compared to the current 25%). Passenger traffic demands are going to have to be balanced against the need for more freight paths.

Running the service on Sundays has been mentioned since the SN Brighton was first started, calling at the airport was being discussed publicly only after the DFT's new franchise announcement last May or June [deleted from their website unfortunately], but going through the SN franchise specs Dec 2010 has always been the start date for the extra Sunday service, so there has been NO delay there. As I mentioned earlier the one way nature of the service is specifically to allow it to be operated without extra rolling stock, this came from SN's PR people immediately following the announcement, but if more rolling stock was available to run both ways it would definitely be a better service - returning Eastleigh - Fareham to 2 tph would be useful for me...

I did forget about the Sunday service which is the biggest step forwards and as you rightly say is a franchise commitment. However the one-way nature of the likely weekday service, it was suggested to me, might also be to do with pathing and operational issues at Eastleigh, namely getting the eastbound service across the down lines to the platform 2/3 island to reverse.....though stock constraints sound just as plausible though.
Lets hope that the timetable makes for decent connections to Hedge End from Eastleigh and Fareham, as there is a lot of potential for more passenger traffic from Hedge End which this new service should hopefully unlock. I'd view it as the first step in building the case for the Eastleigh Chord.

XC should arrive at xx12 ish, so platform 3b would be free for arrival, then shunt via the UGL perhaps? OTOH I'd have thought an amazingly off the wall destination could be Fareham P2 bay, with calls at Eastleigh.

Haha, I like that, though FGW might not- where are they gonna turn their late-running Cardiff-Pompeys if you do that?!

 

[thefab444]

Incidentally when was the LYP - BMH 2150ish train withdrawn, it was rather handy not having to change at Brock after a day in Lymington?

The 2155 LYP - BMH (SuX) was cut around 2004. The morning peak through services prior to 1999 were 0610 LYP - SOU, 0643 LYP - WAT and 0715 LYP - WAT, although both the WAT services were pretty slow.

 

[route:oxford]

As long as you were to add a Coatbridge Central stop in, I'd be happy. Coatbridge is a big community, and it continues to grow as the transport links improve. A service to Stirling in particular will help the town grow. You could also then have it replace the existing Motherwell-Cumbernauld shuttle.

Updated for you with the stops to replace the existing CUB-MTH

Perth xx.00
Dunblane xx.26
Stirling xx.34
Larbert xx.41
Cumbernauld xx.54
Greenfaulds xx.56
Coatbridge Central x1.03
Whiffletx1.05
Motherwell x1.16
Lockerbie x1.56
Carlisle x2.23

This service would both proved a great link between the Scottish towns and Carlisle for fast Services to West Coast routes, but seriously opens up large areas of Scotland to the towns eastern rim of Glasgow.

 

[tbtc]

Updated for you with the stops to replace the existing CUB-MTH

Perth xx.00
Dunblane xx.26
Stirling xx.34
Larbert xx.41
Cumbernauld xx.54
Greenfaulds xx.56
Coatbridge Central x1.03
Whiffletx1.05
Motherwell x1.16
Lockerbie x1.56
Carlisle x2.23

This service would both proved a great link between the Scottish towns and Carlisle for fast Services to West Coast routes

Would be much better/ simpler/ cheaper to stop all WCML services at Motherwell than send a DMU down to Carlisle

 

[cuccir]

Newcastle to Middlesbrough via Darlington, stopping at Chester-le-Street, Durham, Darlo, Eaglsecliffe, Thornaby and Boro. This route does exist, but only as three trains overall (2 early morning Boro>Newcastle, 1 late night return). Would cut the journey time between two of the north-east's hubs, from 60-80 mins down to 45-50 mins.

Of course, the capacity doesn't exist so it won't happen!

 

[route:oxford]

Would be much better/ simpler/ cheaper to stop all WCML services at Motherwell than send a DMU down to Carlisle

True

However given that the relevant diagrams would seriously improve access to areas that are fairly deprived and have poor public transport links to the rest of Scotland (Cumbernauld, Whifflet, Greenfaulds, Lockerbie, Motherwell) and would be very likely to receive European sponsorship/Transport Scotland funding for services - it's probably more likely that appropriate units be sourced and operated to provide the full service than Virgin be prepared to lose 3 minutes off their published Glasgow-Brum/London times by stopping at Motherwell.

 

[me123]

So, how about:

• The aforementioned Stirling-Hamilton West DMU (EMU if the wies go up to Stirling)
• An hourly Glasgow-Manchester service, stopping at Motherwell, Carstairs, Lockerbie...
• An hourly Carstairs-Edinburgh(-North Berwick) shuttle, allowing Edinburgh passengers to connect onto Manchester services

OK, Edinburgh loses its direct Manchester service (although perhaps a few could be retained, either joining onto the Glasgow service or running instead of it). However, you've got a Stirling-Motherwell service connecting onto regular WCML services at Motherwell. And you've reintroduced a service at Carstairs, albeit with an ulterior motive.

Alternatively, you could retain the Manchester services, but stop all the Birmingham Voyagers at Motherwell once very two hours.

 

[philjo]

Some through services from Windermere to Leeds/York would be useful.
connections at Lancaster are generally awful (sometimes about 70-90 minutes or otherwise 4 minutes!) & going via Manchester or Preston can require several changes.

Maybe either extend some of the Windermere-Manchester services to York as the proposed extra service, or run a couple (semi-fast) via Skipton by reversing at Lancaster. the latter would help link the Dales with the Lakes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On the Berks and Hants line, there are several through trains which call at Bedwyn and a few through trains which call at Pewsey, one station down the line, but no train calls at both stations...

The official way to travel from one to the other is via Hungerford or Newbury. Now, who on Earth is going to bother to do that when it is a fairly short road journey between the two places?

Logic would suggest that at least in the peaks there should be a couple of trains each way that call at both places...

 

[thefab444]

On the Berks and Hants line, there are several through trains which call at Bedwyn and a few through trains which call at Pewsey, one station down the line, but no train calls at both stations...

1C74 0818 PAD - EXD, 1C83 1218 PAD - TAU (also known as "The Exmoor Beast Express"), 1C90 1706 PAD - WSB, 1J93 1806 PAD - FRO, and 1C94 1833 PAD - EXD all call at both Bedwyn and Pewsey. Going the other way there are only three services, 1A72 0607 FRO - PAD, 1A82 1155 EXD - PAD, and 1A93 1917 WSB - PAD.

However there are now three SWT (as well as the XC) services between Southampton and Brockenhurst, so even less need for a SN extension...

There were three SWT trains per hour back when the Southern services ran through to Bournemouth, although the XC services were more like one every two hours.

XC should arrive at xx12 ish, so platform 3b would be free for arrival

I imagine they would arrive on platform 4 at xx13, empty out, then ECS to the UGL at about xx19, then back into platform 1 at about xx35 ready for the xx45 depature. They would have to wait until xx15 to access platform 3B as the Southern service to Victoria is in platform 3A until xx13. Platform 2B would be free until xx25 though.

 

[EPB on Tour]

How about a Gatwick to Heathrow service ? I guess the only way it could be done is going via Clapham and North Pole,if paths were available but would it be well used ?

Also a Weymouth to Hastings service,even limited to a few a day,would be good.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

FAB444 - thanks; hadn't discovered that they had already amended the sitution.

 

[tbtc]

Some links lost due to Manchester Airport would be welcome. Since a lot of services to/ through Manchester have been diverted over the years, it means that a few "cross Manchester" links have been lost, such as North Midlands/ South Yorkshire to North Lancashire/ Southern Lake District (e.g. Sheffield - Blackpool or Nottingham - WCML) or potentials like Leeds - Chester or York - Crewe. Not saying these are all going to be profitable, but it'd avoid the need to change at Manchester on a lot of potential journeys.

However, adding such services together would mean losing the same frequency of Manchester Airport trains

 

[Failed Unit]

I think a lot of journeys are not possible because of lack of wires:

If the Reading - Bassingstock lines were electrified you could have Paddington (or Waterloo) - Bassingstoke via Reading. Brighton - Reading as well. Likewise London - Shrewsbury would be easy if that route was wired.

Many direct journeys in the day were pointless end-to-end but very useful to people in the middle.

Take Chester - Grimsby Town, no-one would do that end-to-end, but Birmingham - Loughborough, Nuneaton - Nottingham, Lincoln - Birmngham, Nottingham - Grimsby etc. were all lost when this was butchered and people would still love to be able to make these journeys without changing trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Some links lost due to Manchester Airport would be welcome. Since a lot of services to/ through Manchester have been diverted over the years, it means that a few "cross Manchester" links have been lost, such as North Midlands/ South Yorkshire to North Lancashire/ Southern Lake District (e.g. Sheffield - Blackpool or Nottingham - WCML) or potentials like Leeds - Chester or York - Crewe. Not saying these are all going to be profitable, but it'd avoid the need to change at Manchester on a lot of potential journeys.

However, adding such services together would mean losing the same frequency of Manchester Airport trains

Not neccessairly. A 2014-2019 consideration for Manchester Airport is to build a new line between Mobberley and Manchester Airport. This would allow the following services if it went ahead:
* Newcastle or Middlesbrough to Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport to Chester to Holyhead ot Llandudno.
* Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport to Northwich to Runcorn to Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street. (Possibly an extension or a diverted TPE or EMT service)

It would also allow the reinstation of at least a half-hourly service between Northwich, Knutsford and Manchester and allow for trains to run between Crewe and Manchester Airport via Northwich while there are engineering works on the Wilmslow line.

Maybe even a GM circular: Manchester Victoria-Stockport-Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly-Salford-Bolton-Manchester Victoria?

Note: It was the previous government that said to look at it in the 2014-2019 CP.

 

[stut]

I doubt it's feasible, but a Peterborough - Oakham - Bedford - Bletchley - MK service would be very handy.

If we're going completely pie-in-the-sky, then a Huntingdon - Hitchin - Cambridge would be great too. Hell, let's throw in stops at the Offords, Tempsford and Langford while we're at it!

Gatwick to Heathrow has probably had its day, since the Open Skies agreement put the end to a large proportion of US flights having to use Gatwick. However, there is still traffic between the two airports, not to mention the usefulness of a link from Clapham J to Heathrow, and Ealing Broadway to Gatwick.

 

[swt_passenger]

I imagine they would arrive on platform 4 at xx13, empty out, then ECS to the UGL at about xx19, then back into platform 1 at about xx35 ready for the xx45 depature. They would have to wait until xx15 to access platform 3B as the Southern service to Victoria is in platform 3A until xx13. Platform 2B would be free until xx25 though.

I was guessing, for some reason I thought the Victoria left at xx11 - but in any case, I don't think the turnround is as impossible as an earlier poster suggested. Also of course xx12 only came to mind cos it's 30 mins away from the existing XC - it could be different. Following behind the Cardiff (on time at xx10) into P4 would be just as practical, and tipping out a whole train would be better there anyway.

 

[Proud Salopian]

How about a Manchester-Crewe-Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth route, run by ATW?

 

[tbtc]

I think a lot of journeys are not possible because of lack of wires:

If the Reading - Bassingstock lines were electrified you could have Paddington (or Waterloo) - Bassingstoke via Reading. Brighton - Reading as well.

I agree, but I'd like to think there were a few paths spare for FGW to do Reading - Redhill - Gatwick services to be extended into Brighton at a few times of the day (not hourly, admittedly) - just because Cross Country don't want to provide these kind of links doesn't mean they should be forgotten

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

They can't. There no pathways available between Redhill & Gatwick according to the GWRUS. Yet I suspect they'd miraculously become available should the line be transferred to SN.

 

[Aictos]

If a Peterborough to Bedford service was possible and it would be quicker then the existing journey choices of via London or Leicester which take the same time then I'm all for the route.

 

[wintonian]

How about 1 or 2 Bournemouth to Dover services a day?

I'm not suggesting that anyone bar myself would atualy want to go Bournemouth/ Southampton to Dover that often but it is a right pain to go from this end to anywhere in Kent and obviously going through London costs.