Non-London services - should First Class be removed?

[johnnychips]

TPE is my main operator, and I've never done FC with them. (I did it once on a VXC Voyager) as such I can cope with the seats fine.

Personally I find the 1st class seats on TPE rather hard and uncomfortable. But it's a treat on the way to a holiday from Manchester Airport.

 

[Nym]

TBH, what TPE needs for most of their routes is something like a 6 car 380, that being the maximum length that will fit into key stations allong the route, if it where confirmed that MCO is to be extended, then a 4 car 380 would be better, with busyer services doubled up (and using SDO at Deansgate & Salford Crescent), but I'd prefer a 6 car 380, would be a nice thing to run, and could include a smallish 1st section in one carriage and a mini buffet to reflect the long distance nature of the services.

Very off topic there, sorry.

 

[Clip]

Useful sometimes that the discounted first tickets sometimes don't sell out, so can be available a few days before you go, whereas discounted seconds always do. I've done Aberdeen-Stevenage first class return for as little as £60 before.

We dont have second class - we have standard.

I dont mind FC on services and i use them sometimes when going back north but only then. But as has been said if people do use it then keep it. Though could they do more to provide the tickets cheaper with a lesser service(no booze on virgin) for their off peak services? Would people pay it? I dunno.

 

[LE Greys]

We dont have second class - we have standard.

I dont mind FC on services and i use them sometimes when going back north but only then. But as has been said if people do use it then keep it. Though could they do more to provide the tickets cheaper with a lesser service(no booze on virgin) for their off peak services? Would people pay it? I dunno.

Well, at least I don't call it "third" any more. I still think that "standard" is a euphamism though - if we have first, we have second.

 

[Clip]

Well, at least I don't call it "third" any more. I still think that "standard" is a euphamism though - if we have first, we have second.

I dont agree. Would oyu then say that travelling on a service that does not have first class at all you are still travelling 'second class'? Considering HS1 is a bit of a flagship project and service calling your class as second class compared to the normal kent services' is crazy

 

[LE Greys]

I dont agree. Would oyu then say that travelling on a service that does not have first class at all you are still travelling 'second class'? Considering HS1 is a bit of a flagship project and service calling your class as second class compared to the normal kent services' is crazy

Well, that's a vagury of the class system that happens sometimes. Alternatively, we could do what the airlines do and have "standard and premium", "coach and business", or "traveller and club". Yet even they still sometimes have a number tacked onto the top, hence I universally refer to them as "first, second and third" to make it easier to compare like-with-like. Maybe it's just what I'm used to, it's just this mismatch of a number and a name, plus a bit of pretentiousness, that winds me up.

Then the idea of a premium-fare service running to Kent with relatively few passengers is daft enough anyway, it would be more economical to consider it a normal inter-city train with the standard fare structure and two classes, it would get far more passengers then. But that's beside the point.

 

[johnnychips]

Well, that's a vagury of the class system that happens sometimes.

Probably when the railways began, 'first', 'second' and 'third' class were just a statement of fact about the accommodation available. Since then, English has borrowed 'second-class' and 'third-class' from the railways to mean anything substandard and they have become a derogatory term, so I can understand why the railways call it 'standard'. Afraid I haven't got my OED with me though.

 

[Greenback]

As originally the class system ont rains reflected the class system in society, I would welcome a change of name. I'm not sure what would work best though. I do like the term Economy for Standard Class, but some of the Anytime Return fares are hardly at economy prices, which is what I am sure the railway hating press would be keen to point out at the earliest opportunity!

I do think that First Class needs a bit of a rebrand, but it should be done on a national basis to avoid every TOC calling it something different.

 

[Clip]

Then the idea of a premium-fare service running to Kent with relatively few passengers is daft enough anyway, it would be more economical to consider it a normal inter-city train with the standard fare structure and two classes, it would get far more passengers then. But that's beside the point.

I do wonder why people make this statement and if they actually travel on HS1. As ive said before I travel on it regular to that lovely Isle of Thanet and its always well loaded - not always full - but always well loaded.

 

[LE Greys]

I do wonder why people make this statement and if they actually travel on HS1. As ive said before I travel on it regular to that lovely Isle of Thanet and its always well loaded - not always full - but always well loaded.

Chiefly because the only times I've done it, there was nobody else in my coach. Mind you, I've been in Scotland for a year, so not been there recently.

 

[johnnychips]

Afraid I haven't got my OED with me though.

Been online and apparently second-class is recorded for trains from 'the 1830s' and the first derogatory use recorded is 'second-class citizen' in 1942, though this was a limited search.

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I've never been on a remotely empty HS1.

As I've posted on another thread, if anything they should have declared HS1 a single - first - class route, but didn't because then no business people (with a "no first class" expenses policy) would have used it.

Most people I know use it because (a) they'll get a seat and (b) it is nicer - more legroom and more comfortable - rather than because of the dubious benefit of getting to St Pancras a bit quicker than getting to Victoria.

 

[AlanFry1]

What they should do insted is if they must get rid of FC, improve SC to the level of the former SC, and rather than ditching FC, add extras cars to the train to improve capacity

 

[northwichcat]

improve SC to the level of the former SC

I'd agree 158 seating on TPE was better than the current 185 seating.

However, on some services the quality of standard class seating has improved:

* 172s have replaced 150s.
* Some 150s in the South West and Wales have been refitted with 2+2 seating and tables.
* The refurbished replacement seating on the former FNW 156s is better than the original seating.

 

[AlanFry1]

I'd agree 158 seating on TPE was better than the current 185 seating.

However, on some services the quality of standard class seating has improved:

* 172s have replaced 150s.
* Some 150s in the South West and Wales have been refitted with 2+2 seating and tables.
* The refurbished replacement seating on the former FNW 156s is better than the original seating.

It depends on how well it is done, some do it well others do not, it has nothing to do with the stock itself (in most cases...)

 

[calc7]

Some issues in Standard Class are caused by the people using it rather than the quality and age of stock, please remember.

 

[All Line Rover]

Some issues in Standard Class are caused by the people using it rather than the quality and age of stock, please remember.

That's true. It's one of the main reasons why people choose to upgrade! That's why I'm still in favour of "Standard Premium" - get away from the noisy riffraff () and have a comfier seat, but don't get all the perks of First Class. The upgrade could be 50% of the price of the ticket you hold. I'd pay it every time!

 

[northwichcat]

That's true. It's one of the main reasons why people choose to upgrade! That's why I'm still in favour of "Standard Premium" - get away from the noisy riffraff () and have a comfier seat, but don't get all the perks of First Class. The upgrade could be 50% of the price of the ticket you hold. I'd pay it every time!

I think in theory that's a good idea as a standard premium area would not have to mean the same reduction in seated capacity as a first class area with 2+1 reclining seating. It is however, important that the operators don't start converting huge amounts of standard class seating to standard premium seating in order to make extra revenue.

Does London Midland 350 First Class keep out the riffraff? The reason I ask is because I've noticed on a couple of occasions some services have sold out of standard class advances, but have some first class advances available, meaning it's cheaper to go first class if you accept the advance restrictions.

I'm not sure the simplified 50% upgrade would work though. What if you were doing, for instance, Glossop-Manchester-Liverpool and an upgrade wasn't available on Glossop-Manchester?

 

[Waverley125]

It really depends what FC can offer, and that in turn depends on what sort of trains you're running and what route you're running them on.

So the ScotRail 'intercity' trains i.e. Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk, Glasgow-Aberdeen, Edinburgh-Aberdeen, Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness all probably should, and should be more than just a single 170. Upon their being able to be cascaded, 220s or 180s would be more appropriate. Same for the XC routes using 222s, and TPE.

The problem is that there's a lot of overlap in service types. For instance, Birmingham-Stansted is an inter-regional express, but serves as a 'local' train between many areas. Were it stripped down on calling pattern it'd be worth having FC and some catering, but right at the moment it's pointless, and an all-standard 3-car 170 could easily do the job. The same's true for EMT's Norwich-Liverpool service, which probably should have FC, but a reduced calling pattern, as it's an intercity express train.

Finally, TPE is the same. I think the best option would be turning the Manchester Airport trains over to all-standard class, with extra luggage space, and running 'semi fast' e.g. calling at Stalybridge, Dewsbury and Garforth. Equaly I think there should be TPE services running 'fast' on a very limited calling pattern, with FC, full catering, end doors and the lot. Maybe the Liverpool-Newcastle 'express' of St Helens, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington.

 

[Eng274]

It really depends what FC can offer, and that in turn depends on what sort of trains you're running and what route you're running them on.

So the ScotRail 'intercity' trains i.e. Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk, Glasgow-Aberdeen, Edinburgh-Aberdeen, Edinburgh/Glasgow-Inverness all probably should, and should be more than just a single 170. Upon their being able to be cascaded, 220s or 180s would be more appropriate. Same for the XC routes using 222s, and TPE.

As part of EGIP, the Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk will see newly ordered EMUs working the route. Whether they will have a different business class offering depends on what Transport Scotland specify for it.

There are trials for wi-fi provision along the line, which is notorious for poor/non existant phone signal quality.

I imagine the 170s will remain in use on the Inverness/Aberdeen - Edinburgh/Glasgow routes for the foreseeable future.

 

[LE Greys]

What they should do insted is if they must get rid of FC, improve SC to the level of the former SC, and rather than ditching FC, add extras cars to the train to improve capacity

Roughly the policy that the Midland carried out when they removed second. They actually removed third and declassified all second class accommodation, with many of the third class coaches upgraded to second, or even to first, since they knocked first class fares to second class levels. However, I very much doubt that would be "value for money" (in other words, not cheap and nasty enough) for the current crop of managers.
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I think in theory that's a good idea as a standard premium area would not have to mean the same reduction in seated capacity as a first class area with 2+1 reclining seating. It is however, important that the operators don't start converting huge amounts of standard class seating to standard premium seating in order to make extra revenue.

Does London Midland 350 First Class keep out the riffraff? The reason I ask is because I've noticed on a couple of occasions some services have sold out of standard class advances, but have some first class advances available, meaning it's cheaper to go first class if you accept the advance restrictions.

I'm not sure the simplified 50% upgrade would work though. What if you were doing, for instance, Glossop-Manchester-Liverpool and an upgrade wasn't available on Glossop-Manchester?

A way around it might be to have one coach unreservable for Advance or Off-Peak fares, so only those on Anytimes could travel in it. That would not count for unreserved seats, but might be a way to produce an effective two-and-a-half class system.