No ticket check on longish EC journey

[Deerfold]

Travelling London - Leeds, I don't get my ticket checked at all about 1 in 4 times. It's rarer in the other direction.

Have had a couple of odd ones where I've had my ticket checked past Leeds on a a Bradford or Skipton service but not before.

 

[Welshman]

Even if the guard's ticket machine is defective, that doesn't stop him checking tickets.

Could it be they wish to avoid the embarrassment of finding a passenger who should be excessed, but not have the means to do it?

Back in the day, travelling ticket collectors used to be armed with a low-technology pad, carbon paper and a biro, and as none of these required a battery, excess tickets could be provided. Do they carry similar items today for use in the event of the machine being inoperable?

Otherwise, imagine the scene:-

Guard - Excuse me, Sir, but this is a standard-class ticket and you are sitting in first-class. You owe the company £xxxx.
Passenger - Deary me, here's my debit card. Please excess me.
Guard - Err, umm, unfortunately my machine's not working. But will you promise me that when you leave the train you'll go straight to the booking-office to pay the £xxxx.
Passenger - Yes, of course, please rest assured I will.

 

[Urban Gateline]

Could it be they wish to avoid the embarrassment of finding a passenger who should be excessed, but not have the means to do it?

Back in the day, travelling ticket collectors used to be armed with a low-technology pad, carbon paper and a biro, and as none of these required a battery, excess tickets could be provided. Do they carry similar items today for use in the event of the machine being inoperable?

Otherwise, imagine the scene:-

Guard - Excuse me, Sir, but this is a standard-class ticket and you are sitting in first-class. You owe the company £xxxx.
Passenger - Deary me, here's my debit card. Please excess me.
Guard - Err, umm, unfortunately my machine's not working. But will you promise me that when you leave the train you'll go straight to the booking-office to pay the £xxxx.
Passenger - Yes, of course, please rest assured I will.

Maybe UPFN pads can be used for this purpose? However the guard would need to know the difference in prices of the tickets!

 

[cf111]

Could it be they wish to avoid the embarrassment of finding a passenger who should be excessed, but not have the means to do it?

Back in the day, travelling ticket collectors used to be armed with a low-technology pad, carbon paper and a biro, and as none of these required a battery, excess tickets could be provided. Do they carry similar items today for use in the event of the machine being inoperable?

Otherwise, imagine the scene:-

Guard - Excuse me, Sir, but this is a standard-class ticket and you are sitting in first-class. You owe the company £xxxx.
Passenger - Deary me, here's my debit card. Please excess me.
Guard - Err, umm, unfortunately my machine's not working. But will you promise me that when you leave the train you'll go straight to the booking-office to pay the £xxxx.
Passenger - Yes, of course, please rest assured I will.

I have once boarded at Thurso with no open ticket office, attempted to buy from the guard and was told that the machine was broken but that "you can buy your ticket in Inverness if you really want to!" accompanied by a hearty laugh.

Of course as a fine, upstanding member of the community, I bought my ticket

 

[oldman]

No ticket checks on the entire 9-coach train, or no ticket checks in her coach?

Well obviously she went through the train to find out whether passengers in the other coaches had been missed as well. And of course passengers in coach E are noted for their honesty, so it would be sensible not to check that coach.

The guard may have had better things to do, or then again s/he may not have. I don't know.

 

[yorkie]

Well obviously she went through the train to find out whether passengers in the other coaches had been missed as well. And of course passengers in coach E are noted for their honesty, so it would be sensible not to check that coach.

Ah, I see, so a ticket check may have taken place but not completed (e.g. due to a dispute or any other reason).

The guard may have had better things to do, or then again s/he may not have. I don't know.

Indeed, all you can say with certainty in this case is that there was no check in her coach.

I am reminded of a time that Oscar, Davenewcastle and I were on EC and there was no check in our coach, but the reason was a passenger was refusing to pay and had become abusive and the situation had escalated.

On another occasion I was with theblackwatch and EC's most notoriously 'desperate' Guard never got as far as 1st class, and was still completing a UFN as we were passing Finsbury Park. People in 1st may well have thought no ticket check had taken place - how wrong they would have been!

 

[brompton rail]

On Saturday morning I travelled Doncaster - Leeds - Castleton and back in the afternoon. Four trains and four ticket checks -3 Northern and 1 East Coast HST, Though, as Yorkie points out, only my carriage (B) and adjacent C were checked between Leeds and Doncaster.

But a trip Doncaster to York at 0810 (Mondays to Fridays) very rarely ever is checked. This service carries many workers and therefore a once weekly check (and standard Day Return purchase) is a lot cheaper than a Weekly Season, and I imagine a few folks will have worked that out. It is regular travellers that need checking rather than one off journey travellers.

 

[Matt Taylor]

While we're on about Conductors I've been on a number of trains where instead of doing ticket checks the conductor has come down and just asked "Is there anyone needing any tickets?" to which I haven't bothered showing them a ticket even though I've had one ready to show

I often do this on peak trains into Waterloo, I know that I have no chance of getting through the train after Guildford so between Petersfield/Haslemere and Guildford I'll often just ask for those who do need a ticket, I will do a full check in first however. By doing this I can ensure that I get to all 10 or 12 coaches so which means less chance of people complaining that they didn't see the guard at all from Portsmouth to Waterloo.

 

[455driver]

I've noticed a lot of Southern Conductors do this. Saves time and is works out easier for them.

And then the RPIs enter the coach and do a full ticket check!
Cue lots of threads in the D&P section as to why they didnt hear the guard asking, their cat had died and any other limp excuse why 'they' shouldnt be treated like the fare dodger that they are. It is the passengers responsibility to buy a ticket and that means keeping a look out for the guard and getting their attention.

 

[DiscoStu]

Of course as a fine, upstanding member of the community, I bought my ticket

Liar

 

[johntea]

Do Grand Central conductors / train guards / whatever the term is these days get commission for selling tickets?

With their 'buy on board' policy if they're earning commission they're probably a bit more motivated to get down the train!

 

[trentside]

Do Grand Central conductors / train guards / whatever the term is these days get commission for selling tickets?

Senior Conductors, I believe.

I was told by a Grand Central conductor that they don't get commission.

 

[plastictaffy]

You get guards who are enthusiastic and you get guards who are down right lazy, it's a fact of life. Some want to make something of themselves, make announcements and do a ticket check on a regular basis and some sit in the back cab either reading the paper or on facebook. Before I get slated by the guard community you all know this is true and you all know who the lazy guards are

And it's those "select" few that will ruin the job for the rest of us. And then they'll be the first ones to complain. I can think of at least 5 Gurads at my depot who openly boast that they do not sell tickets, and that they do not walk trains.
6 trains I worked today, and 5 of them I walked. Only took a hundred quid (so a tenner of it is mine, then, got meself onto ten percent yesterday by taking 495 quid) but helped a fella off who was in a wheelchair, had a lovely chinwag with one of our regulars about the disgusting shifts we have, took a suitcase to the next station for a chap who forgot it when he left the train, chucked off a can't pay, won't pay, and generally had a good perv at all the boobies hanging out of the summer dresses!!! Who says we only open and close the doors??

Re the question further up about Guards and commission - LM's Guards get 5% up to the first two hundred a week, and 10% after that. Ex-Central LM staff get 5%. Virgin Guards get, I believe 2%, but they get a pound for every weekend upgrade they sell. Other TOC's, I dunno, but I should imagine that most get some sort of incentive to walk trains.
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Maybe UPFN pads can be used for this purpose? However the guard would need to know the difference in prices of the tickets!

Erm, no. We were issued with UPFN pads. Mine has never been out of my bag, and I don't know of any Guard with our lot who have used theirs either. Imagine if I'm working 2T whatever, you know the stopping pattern, when the hell would I have time to do it?? Far easier to chuck em off!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On another occasion I was with theblackwatch and EC's most notoriously 'desperate' Guard never got as far as 1st class, and was still completing a UFN as we were passing Finsbury Park. People in 1st may well have thought no ticket check had taken place - how wrong they would have been!

UPFN?? Noooo, chuck 'em orf!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem is that determined fare evaders will just keep quiet, if the Guard actually checks all tickets then its less easy to get away with not having a ticket!

But you can spot a fare-evader a mile off, you know that. Funny enough, caught one at your place this morning. Got on before there, leapt off, tapped in by the car park on the up slow side and leapt back on. I watched her do it. Sadly for her, I watched her get on two stops before your place, so collared her for the ticket. She was a bit sheepish about it, too.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Sounds like you got a good deal on your commission, we get 5% on everything here on SWT, but I don't think I've ever had a week where I've taken less than £200!

I completely agree about the good guard/lazy guard point and it really frustrates me because ultimately the lazy guys will be the justification for DOO. Even on SWT inner routes there is no excuse for not working the train (no retail duties though), I spent a year on those routes and I did work my trains and provide a visible presence to passengers. Perhaps it's worth taking a look at the SWT twitter feed when there's disruption to see how many people complain about not getting any information on board which is very hard to justify.

 

[yorkie]

UPFN?? Noooo, chuck 'em orf!!

Make sure you don't apply for a Guards position at East Coast then, as their policy is rather different!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I think everyone can recall numerous occasions when they have travelled some distance (most recent for me being the week before last from Exeter to Paddington in first class) when tickets have not been checked. But for every journey you travel with out your ticket being checked how many do you make where it IS checked? I would imagine overall that the odds would be heavily inclined towards your ticket being checked. So, if any prospective fare dodgers were to peruse this thread they would not be able to predict which journey they would be able to make without a ticket.

 

[daccer]

As we have some guards on this forum I have always had one question which maybe hey can answer. as guards obviously aren't kept on the same diagram all the time and rotate through their links work surely it is very easy for the powers that be to compare performance when working the same trains with regards to revenue collection. I would imagine the diagrams would throw up fairly similar amount of revenue when averaged out over a period. If a guard then decides to not bother surely this would be highlighted when compared to his compatriots. if so does this then lead to any action from his bosses.

Also are guards given targets for revenue. I know the commission is the carrot use but is the stick ever used if a guard is patently not collecting fares.

I do find the reluctance to collect fares a little strange as it does go some way to justifying the change to DOO and using Revenue Inspectors instead.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Years ago on SWT it seemed like the ticket inspector walked the train after every stop, especially on the fast trains. Could the guard not do the same now (with a guard's control panel installed on both sides in each coach)?

 

[craigybagel]

As we have some guards on this forum I have always had one question which maybe hey can answer. as guards obviously aren't kept on the same diagram all the time and rotate through their links work surely it is very easy for the powers that be to compare performance when working the same trains with regards to revenue collection. I would imagine the diagrams would throw up fairly similar amount of revenue when averaged out over a period. If a guard then decides to not bother surely this would be highlighted when compared to his compatriots. if so does this then lead to any action from his bosses.

Yes they can and yes they do. However, it is also drummed into us that safety is the most important thing, and that revenue is way down the list of priorities.

 

[sarahj]

Yes, they do to us as well. But they have dumped the average takings as a weeklyto London can throw off the averages. They now say we must sell an average of 16 tickets per shift. Some jobs its easy, some not so. Some jobs I've walked every train many times and sold 1 or 2, other jobs i've been stuck in the middle selling tickets and sold up to 70. Weekend mornings you seem to sell less as those folks on the, say trips to london, normaly buy before they board.

Of course one of the most anoying things you do hear when taking over a train at a station is the other conductor going, 'well I walked through the train, but did not check tickets.'

And you never check tickets as fast as when your working a 12 car splitter and you need to get it done between East Croydon and Haywards Heath. No time to clip all, just a quick scribble on an open return. Some passengers think I'm not looking at their ticket, I am, just looking for what I need to see. Someone doing the 'dance' to find a lost ticket can mean you dont have the time to do 1 or even 2 coaches.

And as for the UFN books, I have one, but it stays in my bag unless i realy need it. Squezing down a packed high density (3+2) 377 is bad enough with a advantix and cc machine, never mind carrying a pad. I dont have enough hands as it is.

 

[RailAleFan]

Why aren't penalty fares dished out more often or are they non-comissionable?

 

[sarahj]

Normal rail staff dont hand out PF's, that for the RPI's etc.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I'd have to concur with SarahJ as we work similar routes but not the same TOC. UPFNs are a real pain, I have enough to carry as it is without having to carry that pad around, they are incredibly time consuming and often useless unless the passenger has confirmed ID or you have both the time and the phone signal to make the necessary calls.

When working a 12 car 1Txx we spend the first hour just running between coaches 5 and 9 in order to deal with 10 of the first 12 stops being SDO of varying lengths. Then we have the Sunday 1Txx trains which divide at Eastleigh so we have to make sure we get at least the front 5 done by the time we get to Basingstoke due to SDOs at Micheldever and Shawford.

As I've alluded to elsewhere if I don't think I have time to do a full check on a peak 10/12 car I'll concentrate on first class and then just ask 'anybody requiring tickets' in other coaches if necessary.

As for averages, the same train can have vastly differing revenue figures over a period of days as there are so many factors at play. Maybe the train in front was late and is just ahead of you so your train is empty, maybe a late running connection has put people on your train that would otherwise be on an earlier one, maybe a ticket office is unexpectedly closed or there are TVM issues, maybe your train is short formed and too crowded to patrol etc etc. I have a 48 week roster in my link and over those 48 weeks things should balance out and if your revenue figures are significantly below average questions may be asked but it is not a disciplinary matter.

Incidentally, a far more stable way to measure who is working their trains and who isn't is to monitor the number of tickets sold. Personally I would rather sell 40 tickets at £3 each than one at £120.

The things I don't want are pretty straightforward. No safety of the line incidents, no delays attributed to me and no comments from customers saying they didn't see me at all during a long journey.

Forces warrants to Scotland are very welcome however.

 

[30909]

I can vouch for Matt Taylor's approach, last night on 1P75 22:30 Waterloo Portsmouth Harbour he checked the rear unit through to First Class where there was an issue with an oriental couple. With a WTT Variation stop to pick up at Wimbledon (Tennis Championship) he left to deal with the station stop and returned to complete the ticketing and cash transaction. This took a little time so I guess he was hard pressed to check the rest of the train before Guildford, which seems to be most guard's aim on this route, as after that the frequency of or time between stops would make it difficult.

 

[Matt Taylor]

That's about right, in the evening peak 50% of passengers boarding at Waterloo are going to Woking, Guildford or Godalming.

In my experience most examples of 'standard in first' will occur between Guildford and Waterloo which is why the better guards will be trying address that issue.