No ticket at destination station

[MarcOliver]

Hello all

I believe the answers I get to my questions will be the ones I already know after reading extensively but I think it best I make sure as you seem to know what you're talking about.

To make it simple, I was served a Fixed Penalty from Northern Rail earlier this year for foolishly opting to short fare. It was embarrassing and fradulent and I felt a fool having to inform family of the instance.

Now yesterday I boarded atrain at Manchester Picadilly without a ticket as I connected from an incoming train and had to run to make the connection to Heaton CHapel, a service I have frequently had no issue in buying a ticket on. There was an RP officer on the other side who asked me to provide details as I diod not have a valid ticket to produce. I am crushed with anxiety and regret as it dawned on me that with intending, I had walked myself in to another situation that makes me look dishonest.

I am expecting a court summons for this as it is a second recorded offence.

My questions therefore are, is it likely I will be charged under the Byelaw or the more serios regulations law? Would the previous incident be included in Northerns decision on which charge to apply, or is that irrelevant until brought in front of a judge?

I offered to buy a ticket when I alighted as no ticket inspection occurred and was polite and provided all details truthfully. The officer did not caution me or ask any direct questions about intent, only why I didnt have a ticket.

I am intending to leave the UK to live in the US and this could termailly destroy my plans, I have ruined my future for the sake of convenince and can't see any possible way they will accept an out of court settlement, although I intend to offer to pay anything it will take.

I am fully remorseful and can only thank you for advice/ comments as it will provide me with a clearer mnind atleast before the correspondence arrive from Northern Rail.

Thanks for any comments

 

[bb21]

Second recorded offence? Did the first one go to court and were you convicted of a Section 5 offence on that occasion? If not, what do you mean by "recorded offence"?

Which trains did you use on this second occasion? Where did you board the first service? What time was it? Was the ticket office open at your origin?

 

[Flamingo]

Where had you travelled from?
Was there facilities to buy your ticket at that station?
Did you tell the inspector where you had started your journey?

 

[yorkie]

Hello all

Now yesterday I boarded atrain at Manchester Picadilly without a ticket as I connected from an incoming train and had to run to make the connection to Heaton CHapel, a service I have frequently had no issue in buying a ticket on. There was an RP officer on the other side who asked me to provide details as I diod not have a valid ticket to produce.

A very long post but lacking the relevant and crucial information.

Where did you start your journey?

What facilities were available at origin? Was it not possible to buy the relevant ticket using your chosen valid payment method?

Did you ask for the correct ticket on arrival?

 

[MarcOliver]

Hi all

Apologies, I will answer your points

- the first offence was dealt with an £80 fine from Northern Rail after I responded to the letter with an apology.

-the journey began at Manchester Airport, where I failed to buy a ticket as took the same approach, as I always buy on Board the TPE trains at the airport, although now I understand the offence is in the actual boarding without a ticket
-I asked for a ticket from the airport when I arrived at Heaton Chapel
-I mean recorded as in Northern have dealt with me previously
-the time was 17:29 from Airport and 18:49 from Piccadilly, I saw the connection was close but ideal and thought it possible but during the journey
-

 

[Merseysider]

You mention you had to run to make your connection. In addition to the questions posed above, it would be useful if we knew why (were you delayed on the incoming train, last service of the night etc?)

 

[MarcOliver]

Hi Jake

The run was purely to make the connection, alighting at a busy platform 14 from a busy train held me up but that was all

 

[Abpj17]

How important was the connection - another train in ten minutes?

How often have you not bought a ticket but not been caught?

 

[yorkie]

In that case there is a clear Byelaw offence committed, so if they prosecute under the Byelaws you don't have a defence.

 

[Merseysider]

How important was the connection - another train in ten minutes?

How often have you not bought a ticket but not been caught?

There are a minimum of three trains per hour from Picc to Heaton Chapel.

 

[MarcOliver]

I was single minded in getting home as I had been travelling for 20 hours. Not an excuse, certainly not, but an explanation as to why I didn't fully consider the consequences of making the train and not buying a ticket and waiting for the next. I normally ensure I have a ticket and will not play the game of cat and mouse, especially since I have had the wake up call earlier this year with Northern. I rarely find myself running for trains and in both these instances I assumed (incorrectly) I would be able to purchase on board.

I would not oppose or disagree with a byelaw offence judgement.

 

[Merseysider]

A word of advice for the future - to save yourself running for connections as much check on live running information on your smartphone/laptop before you get to the station or ask a guard - they'll know whether a connection is impractical.

Also, the fact you'd been travelling prior to the incident doesn't actually play out in your favour as any staff member with a portable ticket machine could have printed tickets for the last bit of the journey for you, and as there are ticket machines and staff at Piccadilly I'm afraid you've missed at least a couple of opportunities to pay.

I don't believe you ultimately intended to avoid paying the fare, but that's how it will look, and will be immaterial in a liability-based prosecution.

Did you give your details correctly the first time you were asked?

Sit tight, always buy a ticket if there's an opportunity to do so, and allow extra time to switch trains as you really don't want to be running into trouble a third time. Northern will likely write to you in the coming weeks asking for your side of the story - be honest.

 

[Squaddie]

I normally ensure I have a ticket and will not play the game of cat and mouse, especially since I have had the wake up call earlier this year with Northern.

The fact that you describe not buying a ticket as a "game of cat and mouse", and that this is the second time this year you've been caught without a ticket, does suggest (rightly or wrongly) that it's a bit of a habit.

 

[scrapy]

If you have been given an £80 penalty by Northern previously then this will probably end up going to court. As well as the£80 charge you will also have been explicitly reminded of your responsibility to buy a ticket before travelling in future. This will have been kept on file for a minimum of 2 years. Saying you always travel without a ticket and buy of TPE guards will not help. Unfortunately you will most likely face a RORA prosecution as having warned you before Northern will most likely be able to pursuade a magistrate you knew the correct procedure and therefore intended to travel without payment and had you not have been stopped at the end of the journey, after previously travelling through two staffed stations with ticket machines, then the fare would have been unpaid. It is very unlikely the court would rule in your favour as i've seen a lot more dubious cases than this successfully prosecuted.

The only possible way to keep the matter out of court would be to offer Northern a substantial out of court settlement (would likely need to be a lot more than £80) and a grovelling apology. Even then im not sure they would accept as you obviously didnt learn from your previous settlement and they would need to be convinced you wouldnt do it again.

 

[MarcOliver]

Thank you for your replies.

I am expecting this to go to court and I'm preparing myself for the worst outcome. I am aware this looks terrible in Northerns eyes and can't have a complaint should I not be able to settle and keep it away from court. I'm relying on their leniency which I know is by no means required in this case as it appears I've ignored their warning.

I used the cat and mouse term lightly, not as a means to implicate myself.

I'll await correspondence and respond honestly and submit my offer, which will be a large sum and hope for the best, with an apology and hope for the best outcome.

 

[Paule23]

It doesn't just look terrible in Northern's eyes.......

Your last post sums it up, nothing much more to say really. You've now been caught twice so will have to accept the consequences.

Btw your times do not add up, I cannot see an 1829 from Mcr Airport connecting to a train to Heaton Chapel.

 

[MarcOliver]

Thanks, I appreciate it's not just Northern I have to convince, was only referencing the point as they are the ones who will make the ultimate decision.

For clarification it was 18:29, the Blackpool North train, that I caught at the airport, my flight had landed around 18:10

 

[reb0118]

[M]y flight had landed around 18:10

....t was the 18:29 Blackpool North train I caught.

19 minutes. That was even quicker than the pilot. Well done my son!

 

[MarcOliver]

It is possible I am a few minutes out there, but not too far away