No tail lights

[citycat]

Driving home after work late at night, my route takes me alongside the main line from Gouda to Utrecht or Amsterdam. One thing that I've never really noticed until recently is that when a freight train passes me, it never seems to have tail lights.

Can any of our Dutch correspondents tell me why this is? I thought all trains in the UK and mainland Europe had to display at least one red light behind it, freight or passenger.

 

[hexagon789]

It's quite common in Europe for freight trains to carry an end of train indicator instead of red tail lights.

 

[duesselmartin]

Germany also has no tail lights on freight trains. No idea why passenger trains have them and freight not.

Only recently an accident Investigation found that the impact at the Meerbusch crash might have been less severe if it had tail lights.

 

[DanielB]

Freight trains usually don't have electrical cables running along the train, only the brake lines. So there is no way to have tail lights. Usually those trains have a sign like this one at the rear wagon.

 

[skyhigh]

Freight trains usually don't have electrical cables running along the train, only the brake lines. So there is no way to have tail lights.

They could just have battery powered tail lights, as UK freight does.

 

[hexagon789]

Freight trains usually don't have electrical cables running along the train, only the brake lines. So there is no way to have tail lights. Usually those trains have a sign like this one at the rear wagon.

They don't in the UK either. Historically they had paraffin lamps, replaced from about the 1960s/70s by battery powered ones (FREDs) as used today.

 

[43096]

Freight trains usually don't have electrical cables running along the train, only the brake lines. So there is no way to have tail lights. Usually those trains have a sign like this one at the rear wagon.

The UK has had battery powered tail lights for freight trains for decades. Lack of electrical supply from the loco is not an excuse.

 

[duesselmartin]

So does France, Italy, Switzerland ect.
I find the flashing ones most interesting.
Saves energy and gets noticed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Normally there is just a tail marker. It looks like this:

Zugschlusssignal – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Built in lights on RIC coaches have been required for years (as the Mk4s have), though I think a marker like the above can be used if they fail.

 

[duesselmartin]

Did DB and NS have tail lights in the recent past ( post war) and what did they Look like? When were they abandoned?
So many OT questions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did DB and NS have tail lights in the recent past ( post war) and what did they Look like? When were they abandoned?
So many OT questions.

While others may want to use Google Translate as it's in German (also why I've not copied it here as it would be rather bitty) there's a fair bit of information for DB including pics on the article attached to that link I put in above, click the X to close the image and go to it.

 

[edwin_m]

They don't in the UK either. Historically they had paraffin lamps, replaced from about the 1960s/70s by battery powered ones (FREDs) as used today.

The paraffin ones lasted into the 80s, but I think they had to have battery ones on flammable goods from sometime before that. An interesting point was that even trains with built-in lights had to have a separate tail lamp on a bracket, probably because they were so dim that a signalman couldn't tell in daylight whether they were lit. This also changed in the 1980s, when red bulbs in the marker lights of a DMU were relied on despite not having any form of lens.

I guess the tail lamp/marker was also used in other countries to confirm a train was complete. But they did away with unfitted freight trains many decades before Britain, so perhaps it was less likely that a train would have been divided without anyone knowing.

 

[citycat]

Thanks for all the replies. I’m still not sure why they don’t carry battery tail lamps. The back of that freight train just disappeared into the darkness very quickly the other night.

When I was a guard for GNER, I was still required to lug around a heavy bardic lamp despite the Mk 4’s having tail lamps fitted. Eventually though, a lamp was part of the safety equipment carried in the DVT and TGS so we were issued with more light weight lamps to despatch the train with.

The bardic was useful though if you ever encountered some of the more troublesome passengers. Luckily I never had to use mine like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for all the replies. I’m still not sure why they don’t carry battery tail lamps. The back of that freight train just disappeared into the darkness very quickly the other night.

I think the key thing is that railway signalling these days is about stopping trains getting close enough to be seeing tail lamps anyway. The UK might prefer that backup, but Germany considers it unnecessary, I guess. The marker is simply there to show that the train is complete and half of it isn't sat half a mile back.

 

[citycat]

I think the key thing is that railway signalling these days is about stopping trains getting close enough to be seeing tail lamps anyway. The UK might prefer that backup, but Germany considers it unnecessary, I guess. The marker is simply there to show that the train is complete and half of it isn't sat half a mile back.

So, I wonder if it is still required to attach rail clips and walk one and a quarter miles to lay detonators to protect the train after an incident in the UK? I’d better ask one of my colleagues. I’ve lost touch with the latest rule book requirements.

Again, maybe our Dutch experts can say what is required if anything here in NL to protect a train.

 

[Bemined]

According to the Dutch regulations, trains are required to have a single (blinking) red light on the rear only if the track is out of service. Otherwise a reflective sign is sufficient. I'm not sure how that works in a situation when a train breaks down and the line will be taken out of service to fix it or pull it away, perhaps someone has to go to the rear and attach a red light in that case before they can send in a helper loco?

 

[citycat]

While on the subject of lights, every week I pass the carriage sidings in Zwolle late at night in the course of my work and notice that the Koploper train sets are stabled with one yellow light illuminated, but I don’t see this yellow light on any other type of unit. Does the yellow light mean anything significant for the Koploper other than just a stabling light.

So many questions…….

 

[DanielB]

One yellow light is the shunting signal in the Netherlands.

 

[XAM2175]

The UK might prefer that backup, but Germany considers it unnecessary, I guess. The marker is simply there to show that the train is complete and half of it isn't sat half a mile back.

For passenger trains, two red lights to the rear have been a UIC requirement on new-build coaches since 1979. IIRC the German rule-book used to accept the reflectorised boards only for use in daylight, but that qualification was removed quite a few years ago. I also have a faint recollection that since then either the UIC or the ERA have declared that the German-style boards are to be the default style on non-passenger trains throughout Europe, but I can't find the documentation for it at the moment.

 

[AdamWW]

For passenger trains, two red lights to the rear have been a UIC requirement on new-build coaches since 1979. IIRC the German rule-book used to accept the reflectorised boards only for use in daylight, but that qualification was removed quite a few years ago. I also have a faint recollection that since then either the UIC or the ERA have declared that the German-style boards are to be the default style on non-passenger trains throughout Europe, but I can't find the documentation for it at the moment.

I remember some years ago on a journey between Slovakia and Hungary, when swapping crew at the border the new crew turned up with a couple of the end of train marker in a carrier bag and put them on the back.

I think the key thing is that railway signalling these days is about stopping trains getting close enough to be seeing tail lamps anyway. The UK might prefer that backup, but Germany considers it unnecessary, I guess. The marker is simply there to show that the train is complete and half of it isn't sat half a mile back.

Actually, given that trains these days tend to have headlights, I'd have thought that in terms of spotting a train in front of you, reflectorised boards would be just fine - just as in Germany they seem to use reflectorised boards to indicate the location of signals (presumably in case the lights fail).

But if they still have something like our absolute block, then the signallers should presumably be checking that the whole train has made it out of the last block and I would imagine that something lit would be easier to see in the dark than a marker board. Though I suppose if it's reflective then so long as you have a bright enough light in the right place it does the job.

I don't know if they do have absolute block style signalling outside the UK still, though Germany still seems to have its fair share of semaphores (which I find interesting because I don't think I've seen any in use in Czechia or Slovakia where in some other ways the railways are less developed).

 

[MarcVD]

But if they still have something like our absolute block, then the signallers should presumably be checking that the whole train has made it out of the last block and I would imagine that something lit would be easier to see in the dark than a marker board. Though I suppose if it's reflective then so long as you have a bright enough light in the right place it does the job.

Provided the signallers can still observe the trains going through, that is. Infrabel in Belgium just finished a 20 years project of concentrating all signaling activities into 10 signaling centres, each supervising some 300 km of railway lines. None of them have direct view on tracks, and most trains they supervise do not go near them anyway. Same kind of projects - maybe not at the same pace - are presumably taking place in every other European network. So the point of being capable of observing train completeness is becoming kind of moot.

 

[AdamWW]

Provided the signallers can still observe the trains going through, that is. Infrabel in Belgium just finished a 20 years project of concentrating all signaling activities into 10 signaling centres, each supervising some 300 km of railway lines. None of them have direct view on tracks, and most trains they supervise do not go near them anyway. Same kind of projects - maybe not at the same pace - are presumably taking place in every other European network. So the point of being capable of observing train completeness is becoming kind of moot.

Hence my reference to absolute block. While the UK has also gone a long way in the direction of centralising signalling, there are still plenty of areas of absolute block and I presume that at least some of them still rely on signallers to check that trains are complete rather than the sections being fully track circuited/equipped with axle counters.

 

[rvdborgt]

Provided the signallers can still observe the trains going through, that is. Infrabel in Belgium just finished a 20 years project of concentrating all signaling activities into 10 signaling centres, each supervising some 300 km of railway lines. None of them have direct view on tracks, and most trains they supervise do not go near them anyway. Same kind of projects - maybe not at the same pace - are presumably taking place in every other European network.

Indeed. In the Netherlands, this concentration has also taken place, IIRC about 20 or 15 years earlier. And I wouldn't be surprised if Luxembourg had only 1 signalling centre left.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

Actually, given that trains these days tend to have headlights, I'd have thought that in terms of spotting a train in front of you, reflectorised boards would be just fine - just as in Germany they seem to use reflectorised boards to indicate the location of signals (presumably in case the lights fail).

But if they still have something like our absolute block, then the signallers should presumably be checking that the whole train has made it out of the last block and I would imagine that something lit would be easier to see in the dark than a marker board. Though I suppose if it's reflective then so long as you have a bright enough light in the right place it does the job.

The coloured markers on signals tell the driver if and under what circumstances they can pass the signal at danger on sight, visibility is a side benefit.

A signalman operating a manual block system does have to check the tail marker before clearing the block. I suppose if they can't, and the block has to remain occupied until the next signalman has reported the train as complete, it is only disruptive and not dangerous.

 

[AdamWW]

The coloured markers on signals tell the driver if and under what circumstances they can pass the signal at danger on sight, visibility is a side benefit.

OK I have probably made an incorrect assumption.

I understood that in Germany, unlike the UK, drivers don't have to learn any route they drive including where all the signals are in the UK manner, and that instead they just had a book giving the route information.

It therefore seemed logical that it would be more important than in the UK to show the driver that they were approaching an unlit signal, because they weren't expected to have all the signal locations memorised.

 

[Fragezeichnen]

So I guess my answer was a bit obtuse, because there is actually something like what you expected Not all signals have this, but when deemed necessary the associated warning signal for a stop signal will have three reflective boards placed in the 250m before it, a bit like the signs for a motorway exit. The route information book also shows the location of each signal.

It is true that German routes have enough signs to do without, but under normal circumstances drivers do have route knowledge. Driving without route knowledge is permitted only with the permission of the operations manager when necessary for one-off trips(e.g. emergency diversion, transfer of stock to a new operator etc.) and is subject to various restrictions(maximum speed 60mph, no routes with steep gradients...).

 

[AdamWW]

So I guess my answer was a bit obtuse, because there is actually something like what you expected Not all signals have this, but when deemed necessary the associated warning signal for a stop signal will have three reflective boards placed in the 250m before it, a bit like the signs for a motorway exit. The route information book also shows the location of each signal.

It is true that German routes have enough signs to do without, but under normal circumstances drivers do have route knowledge. Driving without route knowledge is permitted only with the permission of the operations manager when necessary for one-off trips(e.g. emergency diversion, transfer of stock to a new operator etc.) and is subject to various restrictions(maximum speed 60mph, no routes with steep gradients...).

Fascinating. Thanks for enlightening me.

 

[XAM2175]

I remember some years ago on a journey between Slovakia and Hungary, when swapping crew at the border the new crew turned up with a couple of the end of train marker in a carrier bag and put them on the back.

Yes, eliminating the need for things like this by going with a single standard for international traffic is obviously sensible.

... just as in Germany they seem to use reflectorised boards to indicate the location of signals (presumably in case the lights fail).

The coloured markers on signals tell the driver if and under what circumstances they can pass the signal at danger on sight, visibility is a side benefit.

In fairness, the boards are purely for visibility when on semaphore masts; but yes on colour lights they have specific meanings: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastschild

Not all signals have this, but when deemed necessary the associated warning signal for a stop signal will have three reflective boards placed in the 250m before it, a bit like the signs for a motorway exit.

I was under the impression that the countdown boards for distant signals were provided as standard - at least on H/V-signalled lines, anyway. I'm not so familiar with the new Ks system.

 

[JonasB]

I don't know about the regulations in Germany or the Netherlands, but in Sweden you also don't see any rear lights on freight trains. It used to be required that trains have red lights on the last vehicle after dark, but that ruled was abolished many years ago. The reasoning being (I guess) that since trains have headlights, a reflective board will work just as fine, and require less maintenance as there are no batteries to charge.