No tail lamp displayed - serious?

[Filton Bank]

On a side note: has GSM-R up there been tested on its reliability on this? Because here we have had a couple of cases where, just when it would have been fundamental to be able to do an emergency call, said call miserably failed. Tunnels and mountains where probably involved in this, but the line had been tested for GSM-R functioning and everything seemed fine. While then, in practice, the red button proved itself useless and mobile phones had to be used to at least alert the signaller who in turns alerted involved trains, whit the obvious loss of precious time...

And not all trains have GSM-R.

 

[Filton Bank]

Filton Bank I'm curious what is NTS? (None Technical Skills?)

Yes. Non-technical skills. There are essentially four components to being competent at a task like train driving. To put it very simply, functional skills (reading/writing etc.), technical skills (knowing which buttons to press), underpinning knowledge (e.g., the Rule Book), and non-technical skills. NTS are generic skills like checking, working under pressure, maintaining focus, communication etc. that equally apply to, say, flying a plane, driving a car, working in an operating theatre...anything really!

Lots of info on the RSSB website e.g., https://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/impr...e/2012-leaflet-non-technical-skills.pdf?web=1

 

[headshot119]

Yes. Non-technical skills. There are essentially four components to being competent at a task like train driving. To put it very simply, functional skills (reading/writing etc.), technical skills (knowing which buttons to press), underpinning knowledge (e.g., the Rule Book), and non-technical skills. NTS are generic skills like checking, working under pressure, maintaining focus, communication etc. that equally apply to, say, flying a plane, driving a car, working in an operating theatre...anything really!

Lots of info on the RSSB website e.g., https://www.rssb.co.uk/Library/impr...e/2012-leaflet-non-technical-skills.pdf?web=1

Interesting I'll have a read.

 

[E_Reeves]

And not all trains have GSM-R.

Do they not?

 

[driver9000]

And not all trains have GSM-R.

As NRN and CSR networks have been shut down which trains don't have GSMR radios?

 

[Filton Bank]

As NRN and CSR networks have been shut down which trains don't have GSMR radios?

Hex or Heathrow Connect - not sure which. Several GWR drivers have stories of being at a stand after receiving a REC only to see a Hex or Connect service go sailing past! Saw it myself at Southall about 18 months ago. Apparently this is because one or other is or was at the time still on CSR, or so we've been told. It might no longer be the case, or it might just be plain wrong, not sure - are there any Hex or Connect drivers on here who can confirm either way?

I believe too that it is still permissible to run trains without GSM-R communication where the cause is an infrastructure fault. (Edit: certainly still the case on the Western according to the Sectional Appendix)

 

[ComUtoR]

So if the measures taken are appropriate, proportionate and not used as a punishment, why do you have a problem with them?

I don't have a problem with them. Not said anything to suggest otherwise. It was you who believed I Was flippant.

Or if you do see them as inappropriate and disproportionate, what justification do you have for coming to that conclusion?

Again, I clearly suggested that they were as you described.

Manager: Driver, I've had a report that you were showing white lights on the rear of your train for the second time this week. You do know that the rule book says you MUST show red lights at the rear of your train?
Driver: Yes, I know that. [That rules out a lack of underpinning knowledge]
Manager: And you know how to turn the taillights on?
Driver: Yes it's the switch on the desk. [That rules out a lack of technical skills]
Manager: Did you check the taillights were on before you changed ends?
Driver: No. [Bingo! It's an NTS failure]
Manager: Do you have anything in place to remind you to check that the taillights are on?
Driver: No.
Manager: Ok, well let's work on developing a system that works for you to help you remember.

Pretty patronizing conversation tbh but to take it as an informal discussion lets see the details.

Jumping from not checking the tail lights when changing ends to an immediate NTS failure is very much out of proportion. It is an error as you say below, it is a single incidence of forgetting. - Quick report, nothing more.

Then to instantly jump to the Driver needing a development plan is another huge leap. You would suggest sticking a Driver on a development plan purely for forgetting their lights ?

Lets look at the 'conversation' too. Drivers are both rules and traction competent. They wouldn't be out there otherwise. Hence your conversation being quite patronizing to any Driver. There is also no evidence of anything. A single question doesn't automatically rule out a lack or underpinning knowledge. Neither does knowing where a single button is. What needs to happen before any of those is suggested is that there must be clear evidence either way. This is why FDAs, OTMRs and CMS all exist. If you are going to put a Driver on a development plan then you must evidence reasons why.

Is your conversation something that happens formally or casually in a corridor ? They are very different and when you are taking a Driver off track to have this conversation is becomes something much much more. Can you justify taking a Driver off track to have such a conversation for just forgetting their lights ?

Action should be taken at the point at which it becomes apparent that the failing is indicative of a wider weakness in NTS that could result in a different outcome, with possible safety consequences, under different (or even the same) circumstances. That will vary from one driver to the next, depending on all sorts of factors. A driver who routinely forgets to check taillights are on: what are they also forgetting to check? DOO monitors as they pull away from a platform? The indications that the attachment has been successful after coupling?

I agree and you need to consider when it becomes apparent. What evidence is there to suggest and what action do you take ? With no evidence trail then you will never know when it becomes apparent. What you need to do is actively monitor the Driver.

And nowhere have I suggested that disciplinary action should be the result of an error (violations, yes, but not errors) - that approach is not part of the just culture that we should all be working towards (and which is the subject of T1068 that I referred to earlier). Admittedly, we're a long way from that just now, but the aviation industry has made good progress, so there's no reason why the railway can't do the same.

Instructing a Driver to take mitigating action and to have such a conversation as you posted is disciplinary action. To monitor a Driver because they had a single error is highly punitive and would not be allowed. As you say, we are working towards a just culture.

 

[ComUtoR]

I believe too that it is still permissible to run trains without GSM-R communication where the cause is an infrastructure fault. (Edit: certainly still the case on the Western according to the Sectional Appendix)

Do you 'believe' or know as a fact ? We can run with just 'GSMR GB' but there is still communication. Is this what you have read ?

I also believed that all trains run with GSMR as part of the requirements for running on NR infrastructure. I too would be interested to know if anything is running on the mainline without GSMR.

GSMR has been discussed many times. It aint perfect and still has various issues to be dealt with. I am one of those Drivers who has missed a REC / STOP message.

 

[Filton Bank]

GSM-R failure due to infrastructure fault is in the Western Sectional Appendix as I've said.

As for the rest of the arguments, I suggest we just leave it there.

 

[jdxn]

As NRN and CSR networks have been shut down which trains don't have GSMR radios?

CSR is still used by Express & Connect between the airport and Paddington and 3 workstations at TVSC. There is a 'stop all' function that is available to the signaller.

 

[Bromley boy]

Pretty patronizing conversation tbh but to take it as an informal discussion lets see the details.

Jumping from not checking the tail lights when changing ends to an immediate NTS failure is very much out of proportion. It is an error as you say below, it is a single incidence of forgetting.

Well quite. As if drivers aren’t under enough pressure already not to make mistakes.

Leaving with the wrong lights set is something every driver has done once or twice. Mild embarrassment is the biggest issue.

Of all the things that could go wrong - for a driver to suggest this issue requires reporting/further action is very “holier than thou” and in my view is itself a failure of NTS. It suggests someone who is incapable of prioritising or distinguishing between what is serious and what is (in the grand scheme of things) insignificant.

This petty attitude of report everything/immediately look for someone to blame is why the railway has a blame culture rather than a just culture, sadly.

 

[farleigh]

Exactly this.

 

[sw1ller]

Well quite. As if drivers aren’t under enough pressure already not to make mistakes.

Leaving with the wrong lights set is something every driver has done once or twice. Mild embarrassment is the biggest issue.

Of all the things that could go wrong - for a driver to suggest this issue requires reporting/further action is very “holier than thou” and in my view is itself a failure of NTS. It suggests someone who is incapable of prioritising or distinguishing between what is serious and what is (in the grand scheme of things) insignificant.

This petty attitude of report everything/immediately look for someone to blame is why the railway has a blame culture rather than a just culture, sadly.

Very well put.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very well put.

Spot on - things to laugh at in some respects - 319's on a quick turn round at St Albans would sometimes come out of the turn back with reds on the front - a quick "catch the drivers eye - point at the front with a small circular hand signal would result in a snap from red to white.." - and once a PA announcement "thank you mate" on departure ....as driver made up time.

Who the "f==ck" is going to report that !

 

[SPADTrap]

Someone who has heard about NTS and let it go to their heads would report that, I guess.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Someone who has heard about NTS and let it go to their heads would report that, I guess.

Well , there are those who do (or have done) , and those who haven't (but just love to comment on so called "issues") ....

 

[LowLevel]

If you don't know that you should probably stick to telling the nearest member of staff. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

 

[Bromley boy]

If you don't know that you should probably stick to telling the nearest member of staff. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[driver9000]

Do you 'believe' or know as a fact ? We can run with just 'GSMR GB' but there is still communication. Is this what you have read ?

I also believed that all trains run with GSMR as part of the requirements for running on NR infrastructure. I too would be interested to know if anything is running on the mainline without GSMR.

GSMR has been discussed many times. It aint perfect and still has various issues to be dealt with. I am one of those Drivers who has missed a REC / STOP message.

GSMR network failure is in TW5 which restricts trains to either 100mph or 60mph depending on the length of the network outage. Running with GSM-R GB in the display but without registration doesn't come under the same restrictions because the radio will still pick up broadcasts.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

. So you will see stabled trains with no lights at all. .

Surely this would not be safe practice in long sidings where more than one train could be stabled ?

 

[sw1ller]

Surely this would not be safe practice in long sidings where more than one train could be stabled ?

I suppose this would depend on location, traction, gradients, weight of the train, weather, speed limits.

Outside me right now is a 150 stabled in the yard and it’s been there for 4 hours. There’s no lights on it at all and in 40 minutes I’m going to connect a 158 to it. Now I know it’s there, it’s dark but visibility is good and the speed limit is 5mph. I can’t see any situation other than fog as thick as soup where this could be dangerous.

But I see what you mean.

 

[AlterEgo]

Didn’t expect this thread to turn out so long!

Just for clarity, the question about whether no tail lamp was “serious” was framed around whether this would constitute a Safety of the Line incident.

I know that no tail lamp is incorrect and that a dispatcher would, if they had witnessed wha I’d seen, have the duty to report it, hence why I told one. Once I had done that, I had discharged my moral responsibility as a passenger with a little knowledge.