No tail lamp displayed - serious?

[fulmar]

Some right old rubbish has been posted on this thread which has sadly degenerated into the usual forum bunfight

Well, I'm not throwing buns. I'm just taking part in a robust but very interesting conversation.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not talking about people having an accident and then continuing at 100mph without stopping

You are misquoting M1. It is referring to Drivers who are involved in an accident. You would not be moving. You are also talking about a Driver who may have just witnessed an accident and intends to stop trains in an emergency who is still going 100mph. If I witnessed something. I would again, stop.

My point was specifically about a situation where a driver sees something that they believe is an immediate danger to trains on adjacent lines. If I happen to be approaching in the other direction a few seconds later, they will obviously still be moving when we pass, even if they have made an emergency brake application.

This is a very rare occurrence. I would 100% support your position if you believe that there is an emergency situation.

Like you I am basing my decision making on years of experience. I have "stuck the brake in" on numerous occasions and never yet been called in for tea and biscuits.

Same here. Never ever hesitate when you believe there is a danger. I am 100% with you on that.

As to the assumption I am making, I am assuming the worst until proven otherwise. You are assuming the best until proven otherwise. If you are happy with that fine. I would not be.

I am in no way assuming the best each time. I am using situational awareness to make an informed decision. I am happy with that because otherwise I would be be putting the emergency brake in every single time I saw a unit with reds up. NONE of us do that. You included. By your own words you understand that there are situations where you know its an error. You cannot say that you use emergency every single time and then call the signaler to report an emergency and get the lines blocked. The first time you see a train coming out of a terminal station with reds up and do not put the emergency brake in then you are making a decision and certainly following the same action as I. You aren't assuming the worst.

On that last part, we will have to agree to disagree again.

I'm not sure that I can disagree that the GSMR big red button would be my first call in an emergency to stop trains. As per M1 That would be the quickest way. I tend to have faith in my colleges out there and have faith that if they wanted to stop me then I would see more than just reds up the front.

I also freely admit my errors and have certainly set off on occasions with the wrong lights displayed. I tend to take it very seriously when it happens.

Indeed, we all do it at some point. Not only do I also take it seriously, its a knock to your pride too. We all take our job seriously and feel like a **** when we forget. We still understand that it is a error.

I've got to go and play trains now. See you tomorrow perhaps?

Late shift too. 01XX finish tonight. Drive safe fulmar and good debating with you. If your down my way be careful out there, had a few slips last night. Cold evening, damp rails

Com.

 

[36270k]

Used to happen often when EPB's had red blanks as a tail indication.
The tap on the head sign was understood by all.

 

[Bromley boy]

The 800s go slightly overboard, with both headlights, both lower level markers and the high level marker lit - the 385s may be similarly Christmas Tree esque

I’ve noticed some newer electrostars also have a light at ground level - presumably for examining the line.

I do wonder if this is too much of a good thing. Of course visibility is important but we are now reaching the point where lights on modern stock are so bright that there is a risk of dazzling...

This is much less of an issue if you have reds on the front of the train of course .

very interesting conversation.

On that we can agree - I’m amazed it has spun out to three pages.

 

[sw1ller]

But TW1 sec 14.4 requires whites at both ends for a wrong direction movement towards a failed train:

So there is a need for the override.

Yes, you’re quite right... in my defence it was 0430 and I was just relaxing after a long night shift shunting and walking a lot. I dont like doing that often! So I was particularly miserable. I was thinking from a cost saving issue (which would have been minimal anyway) so looking at ways that it could actually be implemented cheaply. Sounds like a good idea.

Sorry, I did read that section at the time but I think my brain had given up by then.

 

[Filton Bank]

Are you my Manager?

Nope, just trying to help you become a better, more professional driver.

But if I were your manager, and you regularly forgot not just to set the taillights, but also to check that you'd done so, I'd be concerned not just by the NTS failings, but also by the flippant response.

 

[ComUtoR]

On that we can agree - I’m amazed it has spun out to three pages.

Two Drivers enter, one Driver leaves. THUNDERDOME !!

I've had some of the most heated debates in the mess room over some of the most minor of points. Interestingly there is a sim run where this actually occurred. I continued with a pat on my head. Suffice to say that the same debate happened. I think for the most part that the 'real world' situation applies. We investigate incidents and take each one individually and just them on their own merits. We all act safely out there and do our best to support each other, we are a strange breed that will still argue about who is safer than the other. Personally I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

[ComUtoR]

Nope, just trying to help you become a better, more professional driver.

Not an issue.

But if I were your manager, and you regularly forgot not just to set the taillights, but also to check that you'd done so, I'd be concerned not just by the NTS failings, but also by the flippant response.

Not really flippant. The only way to check that one of your team remembers to check the lights each time will be to carry out an FDA and to download them on a regular basis. I can also, for a fact, tell you that Drivers who show a failing of their NTS after an incident will be sent on a 2 day NTS course. I can also tell you for a fact that our LADD days are designed around local incidents that occur regularly. Forgetting lights is very common. I still reel over a couple of LADDs that I felt were extremely patronizing but they stated that they were being done because of the high occurrences. Everything I mentioned in my post is what happens. Sad, but unfortunately true.

I also have 2 SEPs on my Laptop, Neither of which are mine but both of which I helped to implement.

We have a few Drivers on 2yr 'Skills enhancement plans' Shocking but also true.

 

[pompeyfan]

You'd respectfully disagree with someone who sounds like they drive them? Hmm

Electrostars will after a while give you a TCMS yellow warning 'headlight not illuminated in leading cab'..

I don’t want to go into too much detail, but I’ve known a couple of situations where trains have gone 2 or 3 stops (reaching up to 70mph) before the driver has noticed a head pat and quickly resolved the issue. Maybe the driver was ignoring the TMS fault, maybe different TOCs have different software mods, maybe there’s a 3rd explanation but I’ve seen it happen on Desiros on more than one occasion.

 

[ComUtoR]

maybe there’s a 3rd explanation but I’ve seen it happen on Desiros on more than one occasion.

Failure to set the Mitrac/TMS ?

 

[pompeyfan]

Failure to set the Mitrac/TMS ?

Possible, but I didn’t think the stock in question would move before being ‘sequinced’. I could be wrong though.

 

[Domh245]

I’ve noticed some newer electrostars also have a light at ground level - presumably for examining the line.

I do wonder if this is too much of a good thing. Of course visibility is important but we are now reaching the point where lights on modern stock are so bright that there is a risk of dazzling...

This is much less of an issue if you have reds on the front of the train of course .

The low level lights on newer Electrostars are to help make sure the track is illuminated for the forward facing CCTV IIRC, but it doesn't seem to have carried through to the Aventras. Someone who worked for bombardier posted about it (along with a diagram pointing out where the FFCCTV is located) but I can't find that thread.

I've read elsewhere that GWR drivers aren't happy with the 800s as they are dazzling them as they pass. Maybe it is drivers leaving them on the brighter setting during the night, or maybe its the fact that there are 5 modern HID/LED lights instead of 2/3 but I also read that modifications are being looked at.

FWIW, the 385s also seem to have gone with a 5 light approach so presumably that is just how Hitachi are doing it.

 

[rebmcr]

On that we can agree - I’m amazed it has spun out to three pages.

I think it's down to different people's judgement of what the word "serious" does/should mean.

I certainly misinterpreted what you posted earlier, but now I know what you actually meant.

 

[Mintona]

I've read elsewhere that GWR drivers aren't happy with the 800s as they are dazzling them as they pass. Maybe it is drivers leaving them on the brighter setting during the night, or maybe its the fact that there are 5 modern HID/LED lights instead of 2/3 but I also read that modifications are being looked at

I have read somewhere that the brighter setting must be used at all times.

 

[Filton Bank]

The low level lights on newer Electrostars are to help make sure the track is illuminated for the forward facing CCTV IIRC, but it doesn't seem to have carried through to the Aventras. Someone who worked for bombardier posted about it (along with a diagram pointing out where the FFCCTV is located) but I can't find that thread.

I've read elsewhere that GWR drivers aren't happy with the 800s as they are dazzling them as they pass. Maybe it is drivers leaving them on the brighter setting during the night, or maybe its the fact that there are 5 modern HID/LED lights instead of 2/3 but I also read that modifications are being looked at.

FWIW, the 385s also seem to have gone with a 5 light approach so presumably that is just how Hitachi are doing it.

There's a track debris camera in the non-driving side windscreen on newer Electrostars, which is what the spotlight in the valance is for. The FFCCTV camera is a separate one in the driver's side windscreen.

The 800 headlights have to be set to 'full' to comply with the current standard. The instruction at present is that 'dim' should only be used in fog/snow, and while at a stand at e.g., Paddington. But that might change depending on feedback from drivers.

 

[Filton Bank]

Not really flippant. The only way to check that one of your team remembers to check the lights each time will be to carry out an FDA and to download them on a regular basis. I can also, for a fact, tell you that Drivers who show a failing of their NTS after an incident will be sent on a 2 day NTS course. I can also tell you for a fact that our LADD days are designed around local incidents that occur regularly. Forgetting lights is very common. I still reel over a couple of LADDs that I felt were extremely patronizing but they stated that they were being done because of the high occurrences. Everything I mentioned in my post is what happens. Sad, but unfortunately true.

I also have 2 SEPs on my Laptop, Neither of which are mine but both of which I helped to implement.

We have a few Drivers on 2yr 'Skills enhancement plans' Shocking but also true.

I don't have a problem with any of those measures, as long as they're appropriate, proportionate, flexible, and not used as a form of punishment. If that's not the case at your TOC, then someone there needs to read RSSB's T1068 Good Practice Guide.

If an incident results from NTS failings, then these need to be addressed, no?

Anyway, we have gone massively off topic...

 

[Bromley boy]

I think it's down to different people's judgement of what the word "serious" does/should mean.

I certainly misinterpreted what you posted earlier, but now I know what you actually meant.

Fair enough.

For me the discussion has been framed by the OP’s original question, where “serious” was used in the context of a safety of the line accident.

Hopefully we can all agree that wrong lights is many orders of magnitude less serious than a SoL incident, but it also wouldn’t be right to consider it as trivial or something that shouldn’t be guarded against.

 

[Filton Bank]

Yes, you’re quite right... in my defence it was 0430 and I was just relaxing after a long night shift shunting and walking a lot. I dont like doing that often! So I was particularly miserable. I was thinking from a cost saving issue (which would have been minimal anyway) so looking at ways that it could actually be implemented cheaply. Sounds like a good idea.

Sorry, I did read that section at the time but I think my brain had given up by then.

Well you remember it now. And that's what matters. Threads like this can be like the old Mutual Improvement Classes from Victorian times!

 

[Raul_Duke]

Are you my Manager ?

However, what I suggest, as a kind of manager, is that every Driver wo forgets their lights must attend a NTS course of 2 days and then be placed on a skills enhancement plan of no less than 2 years after receiving an informal warning. I would also suggest that the Driver undertake an FDA and have no less than 3 additional OTMR downloads over the course of their Skills enhancement plan.

I have an SEP on my laptop for at least 2 Drivers and I would also suggest that each Driver is given access to those, on the agreement of the Drivers involved. As a Manager I would also add it to the next LADD (learning and development day) due to the high number of occurrences amongst the driving grade.

You joke, but how far from that are we?

 

[37057]

I don’t want to go into too much detail, but I’ve known a couple of situations where trains have gone 2 or 3 stops (reaching up to 70mph) before the driver has noticed a head pat and quickly resolved the issue. Maybe the driver was ignoring the TMS fault, maybe different TOCs have different software mods, maybe there’s a 3rd explanation but I’ve seen it happen on Desiros on more than one occasion.

I'm 100% sure that's it applies to 185s but it could be that electrics don't have it as I can't say I've noticed on 350s, thinking about it.

There are quirks to 185s that give them the advantage over 350s from experience and it's simply down to the way they're wired.

 

[Domh245]

The 800 headlights have to be set to 'full' to comply with the current standard. The instruction at present is that 'dim' should only be used in fog/snow, and while at a stand at e.g., Paddington. But that might change depending on feedback from drivers.

That's surprising. I'm fairly certain that the current standard on the RSSB website says that the headlights in night mode should be using the dimmed setting (and full during the day)

If they are running around on full brightness all the time, dazzling will be inevitable. The minimum luminous intensity of full beam is 40000cd, the maximum of the dimmed is 16000cd

 

[E16 Cyclist]

I have to say there’s so very partonsing comments on this thread from both sides so I’ll throw this story from a couple of months ago in and see what you think

I was booked to drive the 0020 Marylebone to Leamington Spa, when the train a 172 arrived because i was early i did a handover with the previous driver and was told the leading vehicles engine which would be my rear vehicle wasn’t working, i initiated crossfeed meaning it would take power from the next vehicle and checked taillights which were working. On arrival into Leamington Spa on changing ends i discovered not only was the entire vehicle in darkness but none of the controls worked.

So from some point on my journey they’d failed, no disrespect meant to the person who said whites on the back were a safety issue it is but only a minor one this was a serious safety issue and without trying to turn this into another DOO thread I’d done my job prior to departure and still this happened we deal with machinery and sometimes it fails

The only thing i was questioned on by the DSM was why i didn’t use a portable headlight which was irelevent as i had no useable controls

 

[LowLevel]

They may not present a huge safety risk, but are likely to be a significant performance risk. And represent an NTS failing that could be indicative of a wider problem if it's repeated behaviour.

It could indeed be taken with other things but that's for a decent manager to consider as a whole - my point is as a one off incident taken in isolation it is what it is. I once left a local door switch on with the DKS off on a 153 which is a pain to find as the buzzer still works, you just can't get brake release. It caused enough delay to register and I had a quick 'be more careful' off a manager in passing but given I have (touch wood) a perfect safety record nothing else was said - as it happens someone had been locked in a loo and as it was a minute or two before departure I switched the DKS off and went for a look. Sadly I didn't flick the local door switch properly and it came back down and I managed to lock the panel over it. When I keyed in to dispatch from the panel next to the toilet couldn't get brake release and the rest is history.

Obviously if you have a train crew member with a record for lapses in concentration etc this sort of incident needs to be considered in those terms rather than as an individual lapse but again - that's why we employ (hopefully) effective competency managers to make that call.

 

[Trackman]

I remember this http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoT_Wigan1984.pdf
The end of the oil filled tail light lamps

 

[ComUtoR]

I don't have a problem with any of those measures, as long as they're appropriate, proportionate, flexible, and not used as a form of punishment.

They are all as you describe.

If an incident results from NTS failings, then these need to be addressed, no?

Of course. It is easy to say that an incident arises from an NTS failing but how do you prove that and how do you prove that it a consistent failing or simply an error. ? How do you as a Manager deal with the Driver. If your so convinced that NTS failures need to be addressed. What would you do ?

Anyway, we have gone massively off topic...

You mentioned my forgetting the lights as an NTS failure so this is very much on topic. At what point is this a serious error and needs to be dealt with under the disciplinary process or is this indeed a minor issue that is dealt with by a quick report ? If this is so serious then disciplinary action is required.

You joke, but how far from that are we?

Sadly, I was pretty accurate.

 

[axlecounter]

With the advent of GSMR emergency protection has never been easier or clearer. It is reasonable now to believe it is not an emergency.

On a side note: has GSM-R up there been tested on its reliability on this? Because here we have had a couple of cases where, just when it would have been fundamental to be able to do an emergency call, said call miserably failed. Tunnels and mountains where probably involved in this, but the line had been tested for GSM-R functioning and everything seemed fine. While then, in practice, the red button proved itself useless and mobile phones had to be used to at least alert the signaller who in turns alerted involved trains, whit the obvious loss of precious time...

 

[fulmar]

Well, I have decided that I have said all I want to say on this issue so shall take no further part in the conversation. Thank you for the interesting discussion.

 

[Filton Bank]

They are all as you describe.

So if the measures taken are appropriate, proportionate and not used as a punishment, why do you have a problem with them? Or if you do see them as inappropriate and disproportionate, what justification do you have for coming to that conclusion?

Of course. It is easy to say that an incident arises from an NTS failing but how do you prove that and how do you prove that it a consistent failing or simply an error. ? How do you as a Manager deal with the Driver. If your so convinced that NTS failures need to be addressed. What would you do ?

Manager: Driver, I've had a report that you were showing white lights on the rear of your train for the second time this week. You do know that the rule book says you MUST show red lights at the rear of your train?
Driver: Yes, I know that. [That rules out a lack of underpinning knowledge]
Manager: And you know how to turn the taillights on?
Driver: Yes it's the switch on the desk. [That rules out a lack of technical skills]
Manager: Did you check the taillights were on before you changed ends?
Driver: No. [Bingo! It's an NTS failure]
Manager: Do you have anything in place to remind you to check that the taillights are on?
Driver: No.
Manager: Ok, well let's work on developing a system that works for you to help you remember.

You mentioned my forgetting the lights as an NTS failure so this is very much on topic. At what point is this a serious error and needs to be dealt with under the disciplinary process or is this indeed a minor issue that is dealt with by a quick report ? If this is so serious then disciplinary action is required.

A single incidence of forgetting to set the taillights can be dealt with by no more than a quick report as you say - we're all human, we all make mistakes.

Action should be taken at the point at which it becomes apparent that the failing is indicative of a wider weakness in NTS that could result in a different outcome, with possible safety consequences, under different (or even the same) circumstances. That will vary from one driver to the next, depending on all sorts of factors. A driver who routinely forgets to check taillights are on: what are they also forgetting to check? DOO monitors as they pull away from a platform? The indications that the attachment has been successful after coupling?

And nowhere have I suggested that disciplinary action should be the result of an error (violations, yes, but not errors) - that approach is not part of the just culture that we should all be working towards (and which is the subject of T1068 that I referred to earlier). Admittedly, we're a long way from that just now, but the aviation industry has made good progress, so there's no reason why the railway can't do the same.

 

[headshot119]

Filton Bank I'm curious what is NTS? (None Technical Skills?)