'No Smoking' and 'First Class' coach window labels

[Colin1501]

I'm trying to find out when the original triangular 'No Smoking' and double sausage 'First Class' coach window labels were replaced by the circular and rectangular versions respectively. I have a feeling the original types lasted well into the BR Corporate era, so could be found on blue/grey liveried stock, but I'd be grateful if anyone could give me an approximate date for the final changeover.

 

[Journeyman]

I'm trying to find out when the original triangular 'No Smoking' and double sausage 'First Class' coach window labels were replaced by the circular and rectangular versions respectively. I have a feeling the original types lasted well into the BR Corporate era, so could be found on blue/grey liveried stock, but I'd be grateful if anyone could give me an approximate date for the final changeover.

I can't answer definitively, as they seem to have been used alongside each other for a while. If you look at the Southern's 4-VEPs, at least the first twenty units had triangles and "sausages", but all were painted in corporate livery from the start. They were very durable and often lasted until withdrawal. There were then large circular red signs that simply said "No Smoking" on them in the rail alphabet, before finally a smaller version appeared with a pictogram on it. All could be seen alongside each other, frequently on the same unit.

 

[Revaulx]

The all-compartment non-corridor Altrincham DC electrics had green Ladies Only stickers on a handful of compartments up to their withdrawal in 1971.

 

[UrieS15]

As I recall did many Southern Electric compartment stock in the 50s . They were IIRC always the compartment directly behind the Driver

 

[30907]

As I recall did many Southern Electric compartment stock in the 50s . They were IIRC always the compartment directly behind the Driver

The all-compartment 4-SUBs (4101-30 IIRC) retained them to withdrawal in the 70s. I don't recall whether they were rectangles or sausages.

Back on topic: my guess would be that the changeover started with the introduction of Rail Alphabet, but I've just come across an early photo of a 4-REP which seems to have First Class "sausages" so...
Undoubtedly they weren't changed over for the sake of it anyway!

 

[Journeyman]

The all-compartment 4-SUBs (4101-30 IIRC) retained them to withdrawal in the 70s. I don't recall whether they were rectangles or sausages.

It was all SUBs with compartment motor coaches. There were more than just that batch.

Back on topic: my guess would be that the changeover started with the introduction of Rail Alphabet, but I've just come across an early photo of a 4-REP which seems to have First Class "sausages" so...
Undoubtedly they weren't changed over for the sake of it anyway!

REP trailers were converted from loco-hauled coaches, so would have had "sausages" when built. They were pretty hard wearing, so were only replaced when necessary.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm trying to find out when the original triangular 'No Smoking' and double sausage 'First Class' coach window labels were replaced by the circular and rectangular versions respectively. I have a feeling the original types lasted well into the BR Corporate era, so could be found on blue/grey liveried stock, but I'd be grateful if anyone could give me an approximate date for the final changeover.

I am sure I recall the original triangular and double sausage labels on 4 cigs EMUs into the 1980s I think (so never mind blue/grey, probably also in the jaffa cake and NSE livery era). I suspect older hauled stock (Mk1 coaches) would also have had them then, but less of that was around on my then stamping grounds of BR(SR) Brighton Mainline and Coastway etc. Not sure if this was juts on the original build of 4 CIGs. I expect SR DEMUs retained the same.

I have memories of occasionally seeing Circular No Smoking labels fixed on top of the triangular predecessors, which looked particularly daft and seemed pointless to me at the time. Perhaps this happened when the original label was defaced or scratched and they only had the newer round ones to place on top, but were unable or could not be bothered to removed the original label at the depot?

Were the labels placed on the external surface of the interior pane / side of the pane of glass? (or were they placed within a double glazed unit and thus unable to be vandalised or indeed removed from the glazing?).

I think I have seen Mk2 coaching stock in preservation with original 1st class double sausage labels, so that stock would have carried blue and grey livery. Someone please correct me if they think I am imagining this!

 

[Taunton]

The all-compartment 4-SUBs (4101-30 IIRC) retained them to withdrawal in the 70s. I don't recall whether they were rectangles or sausages.

I think they were circular. Different shape and colour for each type.

 

[Beebman]

I think I have seen Mk2 coaching stock in preservation with original 1st class double sausage labels, so that stock would have carried blue and grey livery. Someone please correct me if they think I am imagining this!

Here's a photo I've found on Flickr of Mk2a FK 13437 at Oxford in NSE livery in 1987 with 1st class double sausage labels:



Mk2A FK 13437 by Steve Jones, on Flickr

 

[WesternLancer]

Here's a photo I've found on Flickr of Mk2a FK 13437 at Oxford in NSE livery in 1987 with 1st class double sausage labels:


Mk2A FK 13437 by Steve Jones, on Flickr

Thanks - good find. Looks like the red no smoking labels might be round (not triangular) in that image.

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks - good find. Looks like the red no smoking labels might be round (not triangular) in that image.

That's because originally smoking would have been permitted in all but a couple of the compartments. This was reduced over the years, hence use of later labels.

 

[WesternLancer]

That's because originally smoking would have been permitted in all but a couple of the compartments. This was reduced over the years, hence use of later labels.

Thanks, your point is well made - I guess the key question is as per the OP - what was the date when the labels went from triangular to circular in the case of 'No Smoking'?

 

[Journeyman]

Thanks, your point is well made - I guess the key question is as per the OP - what was the date when the labels went from triangular to circular in the case of 'No Smoking'?

I don't think there's any single, clear answer to this. I think a lot would be down to things like stocks at local depots, replacements due to things like broken windows etc, and for a long time you might get multiple designs in the same carriage.

 

[Davester50]

Thanks, your point is well made - I guess the key question is as per the OP - what was the date when the labels went from triangular to circular in the case of 'No Smoking'?

ISTR plain red circular No Smoking stickers without a pictogram, although I could very well be wrong!

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't think there's any single, clear answer to this. I think a lot would be down to things like stocks at local depots, replacements due to things like broken windows etc, and for a long time you might get multiple designs in the same carriage.

Yes, points well made.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Aug 2021 ==

ISTR plain red circular No Smoking stickers without a pictogram, although I could very well be wrong!

ISTR the same now you remind me.

 

[Journeyman]

ISTR plain red circular No Smoking stickers without a pictogram, although I could very well be wrong!

Yeah, they were quite a lot bigger than the later pictogram versions, and seemed common on stock built in the early 70s.

 

[WesternLancer]

Good images of the ones I recall in links below (model transfer sheets) - I recall all of these designs in the Blue and Grey era (no circular example without pictogram of cigarette on these however)

Railtec Transfers

Model railway waterslide transfers (decals) for all scales, including custom transfer service.

www.railtec-models.com

Railtec Transfers

Model railway waterslide transfers (decals) for all scales, including custom transfer service.

www.railtec-models.com

 

[Davester50]

ISTR the same now you remind me.

Yeah, they were quite a lot bigger than the later pictogram versions, and seemed common on stock built in the early 70s.

Thanks for confirming. (Funny how you can remember things from the 1970s, but I can't find my car keys!)