No show - no pay (refunding an unscanned e-ticket)

[railrambler]

Yesterday I went from Appleby to Carlisle with an “e” ticket. No sign of a guard on the outward journey or return so the tickets weren’t scanned

So not to embarrass the guards I shan’t mention the trains. But my question is, and I’m not au fait with e tickets, if they weren’t scanned can I claim a refund as a “no show” ? I wouldn’t dream of doing this but I am curious

 

[ainsworth74]

Yesterday I went from Appleby to Carlisle with an “e” ticket. No sign of a guard on the outward journey or return so the tickets weren’t scanned

So not to embarrass the guards I shan’t mention the trains. But my question is, and I’m not au fait with e tickets, if they weren’t scanned can I claim a refund as a “no show” ? I wouldn’t dream of doing this but I am curious

Yes but if detected (and it does get detected, see Disputes and Prosecution) you'll likely face a demand for a very large sum of money including all the refunded fares and some admin costs on top. Worst case they might even try a prosecution for fraud but that is less likely.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

if they weren’t scanned can I claim a refund as a “no show” ?

Completely illegal to refund if you used it.

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes but if detected (and it does get detected, see Disputes and Prosecution) you'll likely face a demand for a very large sum of money including all the refunded fares and some admin costs on top. Worst case they might even try a prosecution for fraud but that is less likely.

I am surprised you can do it after the departure date, I thought you needed to start the process on or before the ticket was valid. Learn something new all the time. Back in the days of paper tickets I guess you would only buy in advance to beat the queues. If you wanted to dodge the fare you would take your chances with the guard.

 

[ainsworth74]

I am surprised you can do it after the departure date, I thought you needed to start the process on or before the ticket was valid. Learn something new all the time. Back in the days of paper tickets I guess you would only buy in advance to beat the queues. If you wanted to dodge the fare you would take your chances with the guard.

Flexible tickets (such as Anytime or Off-Peak), including paper tickets, are refundable up to 28 days after the end of their validity. You may wish to buy in advance to beat the queues on the day but equally to secure seat reservations for longer journeys.

 

[Hadders]

I’ve seen all sorts of shenanigans over the years involving paper tickets to try and obtain a refund (I won’t list them here as I don’t want to encourage illegal behaviour).

There are also ways you could act illegally with barcoded tickets to try and obtain a refund.

Train companies are getting much smarter with the data they can see and search in the back office and an increasing number of people get a tap on the shoulder, sometimes years after the event….

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess like many things, when something happens occasionally systems won’t bat an eyelid. When you are frequently asking for refunds then I can see absolutely why things look suspect.

It is like myself and the contactless travel. I think a get an incomplete journey every 6 months. Fill in the form, correct the issue and no drama. However if it was happening everyday/ week I am sure someone in the back office will be taken a better look at the situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yesterday I went from Appleby to Carlisle with an “e” ticket. No sign of a guard on the outward journey or return so the tickets weren’t scanned

So not to embarrass the guards I shan’t mention the trains. But my question is, and I’m not au fait with e tickets, if they weren’t scanned can I claim a refund as a “no show” ? I wouldn’t dream of doing this but I am curious

This would be a clear cut case of fraud. Get caught and it'll either be a hefty settlement or a fraud conviction which would ruin your (financial) life.

 

[_toommm_]

Retailers (in particular Trainline) do pick up on it, when conveniently, you ask for a refund of your train ticket a couple of minutes after the train you selected arrives. We've seen people be banned from automatic refunds (requiring contacting customer services to get one), along with ticket sellers passing on details of spurious refunds to the TOC in question.

 

[mikeg]

Agree with the others, don't even think of doing this unless you want the next thread you start to be in 'disputes and prosecutions'. It's fraud, plain and simple. You pay to travel, not to have your ticket checked.

 

[railrambler]

Good evening everyone.
I appear to have been ostracised by my post. I am not trying to get a free ride. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I remember in the 1980s when the government at the time tried to close the S&C by stealth. It took 3 and half hours from Appleby to Leeds. No tickets were ever checked and no one travelled - a good reason to close the line. I don’t want Deja vu.

I expect tickets to be checked and only Leeds and Skipton have ticket barriers. So I revert to my original question - can the e tickets be abused ???

 

[mikeg]

Hi sorry I didn’t intend for that to be the case It was more a warning for anybody else. The answer is yes , but only up to a point and the disputes section is littered with examples of people who’ve done it and been found out. Have to say I usually find Northern guards are good at checking tickets but there may be reasons why they can’t on a given occasion.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course if the ticket is unscanned then there would be no evidence of use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi sorry I didn’t intend for that to be the case It was more a warning for anybody else. The answer is yes , but only up to a point and the disputes section is littered with examples of people who’ve done it and been found out.

I think it's probably easier to fraudulently reuse paper tickets to be honest. Particularly if paid by cash.

 

[mikeg]

I think it's probably easier to fraudulently reuse paper tickets to be honest. Particularly if paid by cash.

I agree again. Back in my uni days this was a common practice among the students I knew

 

[Benjwri]

Of course if the ticket is unscanned then there would be no evidence of use.

Not quite true, the SWR revenue show that aired yesterday should be a stark reminder that there are other ways to prove you travelled, such as CCTV, and that the railways are starting to use them to do so.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not quite true, the SWR revenue show that aired yesterday should be a stark reminder that there are other ways to prove you travelled, such as CCTV, and that the railways are starting to use them to do so.

Haven’t seen it, but are you saying that in the calendar month of expiry of a ticket from, say, London to Manchester, CCTV can not only detect me, the purchaser, on XX date 2025, but also know exactly what ticket I’m using to make the journey?

Reuse of paper returns is essentially undetectable. A pattern of refunds would be suspicious but also very difficult to prove use unless you get stung in person.

 

[Hadders]

I remember in the 1980s when the government at the time tried to close the S&C by stealth. It took 3 and half hours from Appleby to Leeds. No tickets were ever checked and no one travelled - a good reason to close the line. I don’t want Deja vu.

Passenger numbers aren't based on ticket scans but on ticket sales. Your journey would be recorded by the fact that you purchased a ticket.

There can be many reasons for a ticket check not being done on board a train (many passengers travel on trains that are driver only operated). Whether a ticket is a traditional ticket or e-ticket ticket doesn't really matter but barcode tickets open up many more ways for train companies to investigate misuse.

Onboard ticket checks are only part of a good revenue protection strategy.

So I revert to my original question - can the e tickets be abused ???

All tickets, whether e-tickets or traditional tickets can be abused. It's not appropriate to discuss ways tickets can be abused on a public forum.