"No Rush" To Call More Train Strikes

[Watershed]

I imagine the third factor is the main one. The ability to call a strike in conjunction with the TSSA and ASLEF would essentially shut down the railway and put paid to any notion of a contingency service.

Of course that may not move the dials massively, but it may be enough to get a deal agreed.

 

[sjpowermac]

That’s good news both for teachers and indeed potentially for the RMT in terms of offering further leverage. Frankly the teaching profession has long been undervalued in this country.

Thank you for your support! The devil though is in the detail, the 9% is for new entrants, for established staff it’s 3%.

I’ve not entered into the debate on pay for rail staff, it has been very toxic, driven in large part by envy. I hope the RMT are successful and the outcome is to their members satisfaction.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The RMT acquitted themselves well in the PR war, and in my view scored a rare convincing victory in this. Mick Lynch was reasoned and came across as a cool, sensible, if not universally popular man.

I think it is likely negotiations are ongoing, and the RMT are waiting for other strikes in other sectors to decide how to position themselves for the months ahead.

Absolutely, my only concern to date is progress is being made on NR side yet nothing is seemingly happening TOC side

 

[Starmill]

Absolutely, my only concern to date is progress is being made on NR side yet nothing is seemingly happening TOC side

The position at TOCs is deadlock, and has been for a while. At Network Rail there's clearly 'room for growth' into common ground.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The position at TOCs is deadlock, and has been for a while. At Network Rail there's clearly 'room for growth' into common ground.

Confirmation from RMT this evening that they are awaiting 'modernisation plans' still so clearly there's nothing even to negotiate yet.

Does sound positive from NR side, and confirmation that RMT is sitting right until other Union's ballot results are in. May have seemed gung-ho to start but more measured now

 

[778]

Are the commonwealth games now safe from strike action?

 

[jon0844]

I think this is exactly right. It’s pretty clear that Johnson is desperate to cling onto power at all costs. After surviving recent events, against the odds, the last thing he will want is a “summer of discontent”, even if the treasury, Shapps etc. have other ideas! That could well work in the favour of unions in various industries.

Boris said something in an interview (can't find a link) a week or two ago that implied he was willing to talk, but couldn't offer the world (or something to that effect). I can certainly see him stabbing Grant Shapps in the back to get things moving, then make it look like another example of what a great statesman he is by getting some sort of agreement approved.

It doesn't help that Grant has been called out left, right and centre as the reason negotiations are not proceeding because he's preventing discussions.

As said, Mick Lynch has come over as some sort of hero - not just fighting for the RMT but for ALL of us. It's seen by others suffering as a first step towards them getting better pay or conditions. Don't support the RMT and how could you expect anyone to support you when your time comes?

Of course business leaders have had different opinions, but there are rather a lot more workers out there.

 

[Deafdoggie]

It's clearly the 3rd point. Support has been far greater than expected, especially from pretty much all other trade unions.

Strikes would be far more likely to achieve their aim if coordination existed with other unions in other sectors to create a "General Strike". The RMT may therefore be waiting for other sectors to decide on strike action, if any, first.

I'm not sure other unions are as harmonious with the RMT as their public front may seem. There's a lot of anger from other union members that the RMT is spoiling it for them. With the government announcement that agency staff could be brought in to cover strikes, that scuppers a lot of people from taking industrial action, and it's seen as a direct result of RMT action.
Whilst, publicly, unions are standing together, privately they're calling on the RMT to pipe down for the greater good. Something they do seem to have taken on board. Mr Lynch has been notably quieter.

 

[Exscrew]

I'm not sure other unions are as harmonious with the RMT as their public front may seem. There's a lot of anger from other union members that the RMT is spoiling it for them. With the government announcement that agency staff could be brought in to cover strikes, that scuppers a lot of people from taking industrial action, and it's seen as a direct result of RMT action.
Whilst, publicly, unions are standing together, privately they're calling on the RMT to pipe down for the greater good. Something they do seem to have taken on board. Mr Lynch has been notably quieter.

I don't see any evidence of this

 

[Bantamzen]

As said, Mick Lynch has come over as some sort of hero - not just fighting for the RMT but for ALL of us. It's seen by others suffering as a first step towards them getting better pay or conditions. Don't support the RMT and how could you expect anyone to support you when your time comes?

I haven't laughed so hard for quite some time, great joke there. Oh, you were being serious....??

Mick Lynch couldn't give a flying fig about anyone else other than his members, which to be fair is his job. But don't delude yourself into believing he is some railway worker or even working class hero. I'm a firm believer in the TU but experience has taught me that you don't put the top table on a pedestal, they are just officials paid to do a job, they are not revolutionaries or heroes. The RMT action isn't going to lead to some mass action that sees everyone getting better pay, the reality is that the country, nay the world is in economic turmoil and things are going to be really hard for a lot of us. This won't change until we see a political movement that is committed to real change, which in this country at least we sadly do not have.

 

[Snow1964]

Strikes would be far more likely to achieve their aim if coordination existed with other unions in other sectors to create a "General Strike". The RMT may therefore be waiting for other sectors to decide on strike action, if any, first.

I think the other unions are very unhappy with RMT for reawakening potential legislation changes, such as bringing in agency workers. This could have lot more effect on other industries.

I suspect some other union leaders have privately been telling the RMT that they need to back off before law gets tightened.

So far no one has called new strikes since the Emergency legislation to bring in Agency workers threat was made.

 

[class ep-09]

I think the other unions are very unhappy with RMT for reawakening potential legislation changes, such as bringing in agency workers. This could have lot more effect on other industries.

I suspect some other union leaders have privately been telling the RMT that they need to back off before law gets tightened.

So far no one has called new strikes since the Emergency legislation to bring in Agency workers threat was made.

Agency workers to replace safety critical staff is a pipe dream .
Government would have to train 20,000 ( just guessing ) drivers alone .
And then another thousands to covers for signallers , guards , train managers etc .

Each agency woeker would have to have their own safety file , exams , refreshers , route knowledge , traction knowledge , medicals …. and more ( list is quite long ).

Agency staff at best could replace customer hosts .

 

[Bantamzen]

Agency workers to replace safety critical staff is a pipe dream .
Government would have to train 20,000 ( just guessing ) drivers alone .
And then another thousands to covers for signallers , guards , train managers etc .

Each agency woeker would have to have their own safety file , exams , refreshers , route knowledge , traction knowledge , medicals …. and more ( list is quite long ).

Agency staff at best could replace customer hosts .

The biggest mistake anyone can make in an industrial dispute is assume that "they wouldn't dare". I'm sure many years ago the thought of agency nurses would have been unthinkable. Yet there is now an entire sector dedicated to agency nurses. So don't make the mistake of thinking that the railway industry is immune.

Of course anything like that would not happen overnight. But given the right <cough> incentives someone could create a new company with access to the network & relevant traction to train staff. And then a government suitably motivated could insist that TOCs use said company for new recruit training, and change contracts to also insist that these agency staff be used to replace existing staff leaving the industry. And then, well you should get the picture by now. But if not please remember that so long as the railway is dependent on public finances, it is also subject to the whims of the government.

 

[dk1]

Are the commonwealth games now safe from strike action?

It’s too early to say as there are 3 weeks left in which an announcement to walk out during the games could be made.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's clearly the 3rd point. Support has been far greater than expected, especially from pretty much all other trade unions.

Talks are ongoing, but seem to be more focused on NR side currently as only 1 offer has been made on (my TOC) side

If it's the third point then Eddie Dempsey is being completely disingenuous about the progress the talks have been making. I want to believe that's not the case and that he's being sincere.

 

[baz962]

The biggest mistake anyone can make in an industrial dispute is assume that "they wouldn't dare". I'm sure many years ago the thought of agency nurses would have been unthinkable. Yet there is now an entire sector dedicated to agency nurses. So don't make the mistake of thinking that the railway industry is immune.

Of course anything like that would not happen overnight. But given the right <cough> incentives someone could create a new company with access to the network & relevant traction to train staff. And then a government suitably motivated could insist that TOCs use said company for new recruit training, and change contracts to also insist that these agency staff be used to replace existing staff leaving the industry. And then, well you should get the picture by now. But if not please remember that so long as the railway is dependent on public finances, it is also subject to the whims of the government.

The old nurse stuff again. A trainee nurse will attend nursing college and can once trained , rock up at any hospital and they are quite often paid more than a regular. Most tocs are struggling to train the trainees they already have and are taking up to two years to get trainees through. Even pilot training, you can do at any flight school and then once you have a ppl , can go and pay to fly out of any small airfield. As a train driver you will be limited to just the traction and fraction of routes of one toc . As a qualified driver , it took around five months to learn new routes when I moved tocs . You couldn't learn every route in the country before you retire. The only thing you could universally teach is the rulebook and their isn't enough driver instructors to get all the driving hours that you would need. If you took my depot as an example, we have sixty ish drivers and three instructors . Allowing for leave and sickness etc they could train two agency drivers each a year, a total of six between them. That would take ten years to cover sixty of us and that's without replacing any leavers in the meantime and the fact that probably not every instructor would volunteer to replace their own jobs and colleagues.

 

[jon0844]

I haven't laughed so hard for quite some time, great joke there. Oh, you were being serious....??

Mick Lynch couldn't give a flying fig about anyone else other than his members, which to be fair is his job. But don't delude yourself into believing he is some railway worker or even working class hero. I'm a firm believer in the TU but experience has taught me that you don't put the top table on a pedestal, they are just officials paid to do a job, they are not revolutionaries or heroes. The RMT action isn't going to lead to some mass action that sees everyone getting better pay, the reality is that the country, nay the world is in economic turmoil and things are going to be really hard for a lot of us. This won't change until we see a political movement that is committed to real change, which in this country at least we sadly do not have.

You wrote all that without properly understanding what I wrote. I didn't say he was literally representing other people or unions, but rather that he's being seen by people who aren't railway workers as someone who needs to win, for them to stand a chance when fighting their own battle when the time comes.

There's a definite feeling that enough is enough, and people want what Boris and others promised - a highly successful economy with high wages for all. Instead of some companies taking in record profits and everyone else being told we're skint due to Covid or Ukraine.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Agency workers to replace safety critical staff is a pipe dream .
Government would have to train 20,000 ( just guessing ) drivers alone .
And then another thousands to covers for signallers , guards , train managers etc .

Each agency woeker would have to have their own safety file , exams , refreshers , route knowledge , traction knowledge , medicals …. and more ( list is quite long ).

Agency staff at best could replace customer hosts .

It might not affect RMT members, but it would affect other union members in other industries. Hence other unions are privately unhappy with RMT

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2022 ==

I don't see any evidence of this

Which is because it's been done in private! Lots of union (non RMT) members are very unhappy with RMT for rocking the boat

 

[Bantamzen]

The old nurse stuff again. A trainee nurse will attend nursing college and can once trained , rock up at any hospital and they are quite often paid more than a regular. Most tocs are struggling to train the trainees they already have and are taking up to two years to get trainees through. Even pilot training, you can do at any flight school and then once you have a ppl , can go and pay to fly out of any small airfield. As a train driver you will be limited to just the traction and fraction of routes of one toc . As a qualified driver , it took around five months to learn new routes when I moved tocs . You couldn't learn every route in the country before you retire. The only thing you could universally teach is the rulebook and their isn't enough driver instructors to get all the driving hours that you would need. If you took my depot as an example, we have sixty ish drivers and three instructors . Allowing for leave and sickness etc they could train two agency drivers each a year, a total of six between them. That would take ten years to cover sixty of us and that's without replacing any leavers in the meantime and the fact that probably not every instructor would volunteer to replace their own jobs and colleagues.

You have completely missed my point. The rules, the T&Cs, contracts, and even how the industry is structured can change. Like I said any move towards an agency based staffing situation for the skilled & safety critical roles would not happen overnight, but that does not mean it won't happen over time. It is quite clear that this current government are keen to see better value for money from the industry as a whole, especially given all the bailouts the industry as seen. The same is true in my sector where they expect 93,000 positions to go by 2025. Yes that's nearly a hundred thousand jobs to be lost, without even a cry of protest from anywhere in the media or public. This is the reality of being publicly financed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Jul 2022 ==

You wrote all that without properly understanding what I wrote. I didn't say he was literally representing other people or unions, but rather that he's being seen by people who aren't railway workers as someone who needs to win, for them to stand a chance when fighting their own battle when the time comes.

He really isn't, trust me on this.

There's a definite feeling that enough is enough, and people want what Boris and others promised - a highly successful economy with high wages for all. Instead of some companies taking in record profits and everyone else being told we're skint due to Covid or Ukraine.

Whilst I agree that people have had enough, dismissing the impacts of the covid stupid spending & the impact of the war in the Ukraine is naïve at best. These things are exactly what is driving cost cutting in public spending (including the railways) & driving up the price of energy & even basics like food.

 

[43066]

I haven't laughed so hard for quite some time, great joke there. Oh, you were being serious....??

Mick Lynch couldn't give a flying fig about anyone else other than his members, which to be fair is his job. But don't delude yourself into believing he is some railway worker or even working class hero. I'm a firm believer in the TU but experience has taught me that you don't put the top table on a pedestal, they are just officials paid to do a job, they are not revolutionaries or heroes. The RMT action isn't going to lead to some mass action that sees everyone getting better pay, the reality is that the country, nay the world is in economic turmoil and things are going to be really hard for a lot of us. This won't change until we see a political movement that is committed to real change, which in this country at least we sadly do not have.

Wow. Your disappointment that Lynch has come across well is palpable. He’s made a splash, is something of a household name, and appears to be making some headway.

What is your union doing? It sounds to me like you’re a “firm believer” in TUs who don’t actually do anything.

You have completely missed my point. The rules, the T&Cs, contracts, and even how the industry is structured can change. Like I said any move towards an agency based staffing situation for the skilled & safety critical roles would not happen overnight, but that does not mean it won't happen over time. It is quite clear that this current government are keen to see better value for money from the industry as a whole, especially given all the bailouts the industry as seen. The same is true in my sector where they expect 93,000 positions to go by 2025. Yes that's nearly a hundred thousand jobs to be lost, without even a cry of protest from anywhere in the media or public. This is the reality of being publicly financed.

I’m afraid this just sounds like more “what I want to happen” masquerading as a statement of fact.

I’ll avoid getting drawn into another debate about the merits of the first action itself, which I don’t think is what this thread is meant to be about.

 

[baz962]

You have completely missed my point. The rules, the T&Cs, contracts, and even how the industry is structured can change. Like I said any move towards an agency based staffing situation for the skilled & safety critical roles would not happen overnight, but that does not mean it won't happen over time. It is quite clear that this current government are keen to see better value for money from the industry as a whole, especially given all the bailouts the industry as seen. The same is true in my sector where they expect 93,000 positions to go by 2025. Yes that's nearly a hundred thousand jobs to be lost, without even a cry of protest from anywhere in the media or public. This is the reality of being publicly financed.

Well ok . Wouldn't happen overnight in my case would almost certainly mean , not a chance before I retire. It would probably cost them far more to train and then pay them, than to give a fair payrise. As for cutting jobs I couldn't say , but a lot of tocs are short of drivers now and I have been reading a thread on here somewhere where a signal box has closed and causing huge problems, due to signaller shortage. I can't see it myself.

 

[Bantamzen]

Wow. Your disappointment that Lynch has come across well is palpable. He’s made a splash, is something of a household name, and appears to be making some headway.

Household name, oh please... I can more or less guarantee you that practically no-one in this country outside of the rail industry & associated forums would know him if he was stood next to them at the bar. But what is revealing from your comment is just how insular the railway industry really is.

Look I totally understand the desire of the railway industry to have inflation matching rises, better T&Cs, the promise of no compulsory redundancies etc. But just for one minute open your eyes and look around you, the world has just spent the last two years bricking itself about a virus & locking down people / industries / economies to try and prevent what it could not prevent. And that cost money, a big, massive, stupid, huge, eye-wateringly large amount of money. Now I know you would argue that governments could just print more & that would be fine, but sadly this is not how the real world works. Personally speaking I don't wish to end in the situation that Zimbabwe found itself in where you practically had to carry your currency around in a wheelbarrow just to buy a loaf of bread. As I've said before, the bottom line is this. If you are funded by the Treasury then you are not going to get inflation busting, private sector matching deals. And public sector money is very, very finite.

What is your union doing? It sounds to me like you’re a “firm believer” in TUs who don’t actually do anything.

They want a 10% pay rise, and they balloted us on the principle of taking industrial action. And the result was 97.3% in favour of the claim, 80.7% willing to take industrial action, but a turnout of 45.2% meaning that the majority of my union's members are not willing, for whatever reason to go on strike for what would be an unprecedented pay rise.

Yet more “what I want to happen” masquerading as a statement of fact.

Sorry, my bad. Its only 91K jobs to go.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61432498

Well ok . Wouldn't happen overnight in my case would almost certainly mean , not a chance before I retire. It would probably cost them far more to train and then pay them, than to give a fair payrise. As for cutting jobs I couldn't say , but a lot of tocs are short of drivers now and I have been reading a thread on here somewhere where a signal box has closed and causing huge problems, due to signaller shortage. I can't see it myself.

As I say, never assume it will never happen. There are increasingly large parts of the public sector that are contracted out to private companies that use agency workers, so it is far from unusual for it to happen where sectors are publicly funded.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Wow. Your disappointment that Lynch has come across well is palpable. He’s made a splash, is something of a household name, and appears to be making some headway.

If you stopped 100 people on the street, 99 of them would not have heard of him.

 

[SynthD]

Can claims please be backed up? Widespread news is known, peoples personal motivations are certainly not.

 

[Carlisle]

Wow. Your disappointment that Lynch has come across well is palpable. He’s made a splash, is something of a household name, and appears to be making some headway.

He gave some good interviews, however his performance on BBCs Question Time appeared mediocre at best .

 

[Goldfish62]

He gave some good interviews, however his performance on BBCs Question Time appeared mediocre at best .

But then he was up against "Dinosaur Woman".

 

[43066]

Household name, oh please... I can more or less guarantee you that practically no-one in this country outside of the rail industry & associated forums would know him if he was stood next to them at the bar. But what is revealing from your comment is just how insular the railway industry really is.

Does every comment of yours have to come with a snarky opening? It might surprise you to learn I don’t exclusively mix with railway staff. I know plenty of people outside the industry who are well aware of who he is. He’s been all over the papers, GMB, mainstream news programs, or has that escaped your notice?

Look I totally understand the desire of the railway industry to have inflation matching rises, better T&Cs, the promise of no compulsory redundancies etc. But just for one minute open your eyes and look around you, the world has just spent the last two years bricking itself about a virus & locking down people / industries / economies to try and prevent what it could not prevent. And that cost money, a big, massive, stupid, huge, eye-wateringly large amount of money. Now I know you would argue that governments could just print more & that would be fine, but sadly this is not how the real world works. Personally speaking I don't wish to end in the situation that Zimbabwe found itself in where you practically had to carry your currency around in a wheelbarrow just to buy a loaf of bread.

I wasn’t asking for another long winded lecture on your version of how “the real world” works, thanks all the same. I’m afraid the ludicrous comment in relation to hyper inflation in Zimbabwe, in the context of this strike action, shows you aren’t as worldly as you think you are - rather the opposite, you’ve lapped up the propaganda and doublethink being trotted out by Johnson & Co.

It’s perfectly clear that this government doesn’t care one jot about inflation. The reckless-to-the-point-of-madness spending of last couple of years, eat out to help out, 10% on the state pension (a bung to the base) and the tax cuts being demanded by senior tories all show that unless, in some parallel world, those things aren’t inflationary?! Then as soon as dirty railway workers dare to ask for anything they’re told “no, because inflation”. Don’t make me laugh. It’s very clear that who qualifies for a pay rise in 2022 Britain is all about politics and bungs to the base, it has nothing whatsoever to do with careful stewardship of the economy.

You can meekly accept the rich-list-chancellor telling you the cupboard is bare and suffer a massive cut in your standard of living if you want to, others aren’t so willing.

As I've said before, the bottom line is this. If you are funded by the Treasury then you are not going to get inflation busting, private sector matching deals. And public sector money is very, very finite.

Thankfully the railway isn’t exclusively funded by the treasury. The sooner it’s removed from the definition of “public sector” the better, for staff and passengers alike.

They want a 10% pay rise, and they balloted us on the principle of taking industrial action. And the result was 97.3% in favour of the claim, 80.7% willing to take industrial action, but a turnout of 45.2% meaning that the majority of my union's members are not willing, for whatever reason to go on strike for what would be an unprecedented pay rise.

So in other words they aren’t prepared to stand up for themselves, for whatever reason. How has that approach worked out for the civil senior over the last few years?

, my bad. Its only 91K jobs to go.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61432498

Why are you telling me this? Unlike certain others I could mention I fully support other sectors trying to stand up for themselves.

Once again I’m afraid I detect a certain bitterness in your postings on this subject. You’re clearly (and understandably) upset by what’s happening in your own industry, yet your reaction to that is criticising unions who want to prevent the same happening in other sectors.

I just can’t respect that stance.

 

[Goldfish62]

Does every comment of yours have to come with a snarky opening? It might surprise you to learn I don’t exclusively mix with railway staff. I know plenty of people outside the industry who are well aware of who he is. He’s been all over the papers, GMB, mainstream news programs, or has that escaped your notice?



I wasn’t asking for another long winded lecture on your version of how “the real world” works, thanks all the same. I’m afraid the ludicrous comment in relation to hyper inflation in Zimbabwe, in the context of this strike action, shows you aren’t as worldly as you think you are - rather the opposite, you’ve lapped up the propaganda and doublethink being trotted out by Johnson & Co.

It’s perfectly clear that this government doesn’t care one jot about inflation. The reckless-to-the-point-of-madness spending of last couple of years, eat out to help out, 10% on the state pension (a bung to the base) and the tax cuts being demanded by senior tories all show that unless, in some parallel world, those things aren’t inflationary?! Then as soon as dirty railway workers dare to ask for anything they’re told “no, because inflation”. Don’t make me laugh. It’s very clear that who qualifies for a pay rise in 2022 Britain is all about politics and bungs to the base, it has nothing whatsoever to do with careful stewardship of the economy.

You can meekly accept the rich-list-chancellor telling you the cupboard is bare and suffer a massive cut in your standard of living if you want to, others aren’t so willing.



Thankfully the railway isn’t exclusively funded by the treasury. The sooner it’s removed from the definition of “public sector” the better, for staff and passengers alike.



So in other words they aren’t prepared to stand up for themselves, for whatever reason. How has that approach worked out for the civil senior over the last few years?



Why are you telling me this? Unlike certain others I could mention I fully support other sectors trying to stand up for themselves.

Once again I’m afraid I detect a certain bitterness in your postings on this subject. You’re clearly (and understandably) upset by what’s happening in your own industry, yet your reaction to that is criticising unions who want to prevent the same happening in other sectors.

I just can’t respect that stance.

Point of order in your otherwise very good post. The state pension rose by 3.2% in April, not 10%.

 

[43066]

Point of order in your otherwise very good post. The state pension rose by 3.2% in April, not 10%.

Apologies, it’s coming next year though. To be clear I’m not necessarily against that, but it’s clearly inflationary.

 

[Goldfish62]

Apologies, it’s coming next year though. To be clear I’m not necessarily against that, but it’s clearly inflationary.

Unless Sunak decides to change the rules again.