No railcard - my mistake

[rw123456]

Hello,

I was given a penalty fare notice for not being able to present a railcard.

I travel regularly by train and don’t actually have a railcard. By pure mistake or error when booking I purchased a ticket with a railcard fare. No idea how this happened and had no idea until my ticket was checked on the train. When asked for my railcard I explained I don’t have one and never buy tickets with a railcard fare.

I showed the inspector my previous bookings/tickets that all don’t have a railcard on in an attempt to try and prove that this was a genuine mistake.

The inspector agreed that this was clearly a one off mistake but still issued me with a fine amounting to £180.

I questioned the amount straight away and the inspector said I am lucky not to be prosecuted straight away. I was completely shocked at the amount firstly especially considering the inspector agreed it was a mistake. It seems a completely unfair amount considering the mistake. What options do I have? I’ve already contested it online.

Thanks

 

[jfollows]

Welcome to the forum!

Please read https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/please-read-before-posting-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/ and post what you can.

Plus what you’ve said in your appeals to date.

There are three appeals and sometimes only robots are involved in the first two, so there may be technicalities we can advise on if you give us the details.

What you’ve said in your post doesn’t give us enough information to give you the advice you want.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello,

I was given a penalty fare notice for not being able to present a railcard. I travel regularly by train and don’t actually have a railcard. By pure mistake or error when booking I purchased a ticket with a railcard fare. No idea how this happened and had no idea until my ticket was checked on the train. When asked for my railcard I explained I don’t have one and never buy tickets with a railcard fare. I showed the inspector my previous bookings/tickets that all don’t have a railcard on in an attempt to try and prove that this was a genuine mistake. The inspector agreed that this was clearly a one off mistake but still issued me with a fine amounting to £180. I questioned the amount straight away and the inspector said I am lucky not to be prosecuted straight away. I was completely shocked at the amount firstly especially considering the inspector agreed it was a mistake. It seems a completely unfair amount considering the mistake. What options do I have? I’ve already contested it online.

Well, you've already submitted one of your three appeals. This will almost certainly be rejected because you probably appealed on the grounds "this is unfair"; a penalty fare for claiming a railcard discount is, as the inspector said, quite a "good" outcome, and one they can lawfully take in most circumstances. They often scan the ticket and issue a report for prosecution to the back office, then audit your online purchasing accounts to find more occasions, before settling out of court for a sum of money.

We need to see a copy of the notice (remove your name!) as well as all the info in the linked post @jfollows has mentioned, and we can see if the Notice is compliant and whether you have a technical line of appeal. Please also tell us the exact ticket held and what railcard discount was applied to it.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .Are you certain you've been issued with a Penalty Fare Notice and NOT an Unpaid Fare Notice?

. . .The amount you quoted is certainly high enough to be an Unpaid Fare Notice which has a slightly different sanction to a PFN, and the R.P.I. would (or should!) have advised you which it was, and if it WAS a P.F.N., you should have been offered 21 days to pay it at 50% discount!

. . .The Expert Forum Advisers need :–

. . . Your Boarding and Alighting Stations ;

. . .Who operated the train you were on ;

. . .What ticket(s) were held ;

. . .Scans of ALL paperwork handed to you!

 

[rw123456]

Thank you for the advice thus far. I have attached pictures of the notice provided.

I have also attached details from my ticket.

Additional information:
Boarded Liverpool like street. Changed at Birmingham new street. Alighted London Euston.
Operator - London North Western railway
The accidental railcard was a 16-25 Railcard.

Thank you.

 

[AlterEgo]

The notice is unlawful.

The penalty fare can only be charged from the *boarding station* of the train you are on or have just alighted. Therefore it is not possible to issue a PF from Liverpool Lime Street at London Euston as you boarded the "offence" train in Birmingham.

Someone else will be able to help you compile the appeal, but it is unlawful on those grounds and cannot stand.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the advice thus far. I have attached pictures of the notice provided.

I have also attached details from my ticket.

Additional information:
Boarded Liverpool like street. Changed at Birmingham new street. Alighted London Euston.
Operator - London North Western railway
The accidental railcard was a 16-25 Railcard.

Thank you.

Ref the sum asked for a Penalty Fare is £100 + the full single fare for the journey. The £100 is reduced to £50 if paid promptly. I assume the fare being asked for is £80

Post above indicates how you can submit an Appeal with strong prospect of success.

 

[z444z]

Suggested wording below. It's possible this penalty fare is additionally non-compliant if it wasn't issued to the next stop, which I can't check without knowing which train you were on, but honestly it's probably best to keep the first appeal as simple as possible and add further grounds in further stages if required.

REFERENCE: [INSERT]

I am writing to appeal the Penalty Fare Notice referenced above on the basis that it does not comply with The Regulations because the incorrect fare has been charged.

Regulation 9 requires the fare element of the Penalty Fare to be calculated from the station where the passenger boarded the train. I had boarded at Birmingham New Street, so the fare should have been £20.90. I was charged a fare of £79.80, calculated from Liverpool Lime Street, which is not even a station the train had called at.

The Regulations are clear that if a Penalty Fare Notice has not been issued in accordance with The Regulations, the Appeals Panel must allow the appeal. I therefore request that this penalty fare notice is cancelled.

 

[saismee]

The notice is unlawful.

The penalty fare can only be charged from the *boarding station* of the train you are on or have just alighted. Therefore it is not possible to issue a PF from Liverpool Lime Street at London Euston as you boarded the "offence" train in Birmingham.

The fare is also be too high because on this.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fare is also be too high because on this.

Yes, this should also be referenced in the appeal. Not only is this a technical error it is also harmful to the customer as it results in a gross overcharge.

 

[rw123456]

The notice is unlawful.

The penalty fare can only be charged from the *boarding station* of the train you are on or have just alighted. Therefore it is not possible to issue a PF from Liverpool Lime Street at London Euston as you boarded the "offence" train in Birmingham.

Someone else will be able to help you compile the appeal, but it is unlawful on those grounds and cannot stand.

thank you for this. The only thing to note is that I received the penalty shortly after boarding at Liverpool. I then changed and boarded the second train. Do the grounds still stand as I was charged to Euston but that particular train terminated in Birmingham new street?

Thank you

 

[Sun Chariot]

thank you for this. The only thing to note is that I received the penalty shortly after boarding at Liverpool. I then changed and boarded the second train. Do the grounds still stand as I was charged to Euston but that particular train terminated in Birmingham new street?

Hello @rw123456 which exact train were you on:.
a) Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street?
b) BNS to London Euston?

Your PFN has LNW's full undiscounted Adult Single fare (£79.80) between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston (attached).
@z444z states above, this penalty fare is non-compliant - it wasn't issued for next disembarkation and train termination at Birmingham New Street.

 

[rw123456]

Hello @rw123456 which exact train were you on:.
a) Liverpool Lime Street to Bitmingham New Street?
b) BNS to London Euston?

Your PFN has LNW's full undiscounted Adult Single fare (£79.80) between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston (attached).
@z444z states above, this penalty fare is non-compliant - it wasn't issued for next disembarkation and train termination at Birmingham New Street.

Hello,

I was on a) Liverpool lime street to Birmingham New street when the penalty fare was given to me.

Thank you for the help. I will contest on these grounds.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for the help. I will contest on these grounds.

Before you submit your next stage appeal I would strongly suggest posting your draft wording here so it can be checked before you use up your next appeal chance.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Hello,

I was on a) Liverpool lime street to Birmingham New street when the penalty fare was given to me.

No - I mean what were the booked timetabled departure and arrival times for your two trains? You need to evidence that your Lime Street train was not going farther than BNS.

 

[rw123456]

No - I mean what were the booked timetabled departure and arrival times for your two trains? You need to evidence that your Lime Street train was not going farther than BNS.

My bad.

Liverpool lime street: 13:12 service to Birmingham new street arriving 14:48

Birmingham new street: 15:06 service to London Euston arriving 17:17

 

[Sun Chariot]

My bad.

Liverpool lime street: 13:12 service to Birmingham new street arriving 14:48

Birmingham new street: 15:06 service to London Euston arriving 17:17

Excellent - thanks. So your Penalty Fare to Euston, was while travelling (link) this service, timetabled to terminate at BHM. Evidence for your appeal.

Realtime Trains | 1G54 1312 Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street | 19/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 1G54 1312 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street on 19/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You need to evidence that your Lime Street train was not going farther than BNS.

This has been resolved for this case, but as far as I know, there are not currently any Liverpool to Birmingham services that run beyond Birmingham.

 

[rw123456]

Excellent - thanks. So your Penalty Fare to Euston, was this linked service, timetabled to terminate at BNS. Evidence for your appeal.

Realtime Trains | 1G54 1312 Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street | 19/03/2026

Real-time train running information for 1G54 1312 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street on 19/03/2026. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Great thank you

 

[z444z]

Sorry I misunderstood and wrote that draft on the assumption it was the second train this was issued on. Will rewrite it later today - OP don’t submit anything yet!

 

[rw123456]

Okay won’t submit anything yet. Thank you very much in advance for writing it out. Much appreciated.

 

[z444z]

REFERENCE: [INSERT]

I am writing to appeal the Penalty Fare Notice referenced above on the basis that it does not comply with The Regulations because the incorrect fare has been charged.

Regulations 9(2A) and 5(5A) in combination require the fare element of the Penalty Fare to be calculated to either the next station, or another station at which the train is due to call if the passenger requests it. Either way, The Regulations do not permit a Penalty Fare to be issued to a station the train does not call at. I was charged a fare of £79.80, all the way to London Euston, but the train I was on terminated at Birmingham New Street, and did not go to London Euston.

The Regulations are clear that if a Penalty Fare Notice has not been issued in accordance with The Regulations, the Appeals Panel must allow the appeal. I therefore request that this penalty fare notice is cancelled.

 

[rw123456]

The appeal was approved and case closed. Big thank you all!

 

[AlterEgo]

The appeal was approved and case closed. Big thank you all!

Good. Would you mind sharing the response letter you got from them? It helps inform the forum as to the reasoning for rescinding the penalty fare.

 

[rw123456]

Attached as requested. Thanks

 

[AlterEgo]

Very strange they cite signage when this wasn’t part of your appeal! But thanks anyway.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Good outcome @rw123456 thanks for letting us know - and thanks for using the advice from this forum's members.

 

[blimmo]

Very strange they cite signage when this wasn’t part of your appeal! But thanks anyway.

Someone pasted the wrong pre-written response

 

[z444z]

Very strange they cite signage when this wasn’t part of your appeal! But thanks anyway.

I think they're just throwing in a fun fact about penalty fares instead of making any attempt to respond as the regulations require them to