No more First TPE First Class Declassification

[wellhouse]

The guard on the service this morning from Huddersfield to Manchester announced that policy has changed so that First Class is no longer to be declassified on busy services.

He also promised a 30% increase in capicity by December, so apparently confident that the electric Scottish services will be up and running by then.

 

[YorkshireBear]

December is optimistic from my understanding of plans. May 14 is when it all increases.

 

[Blindtraveler]

December is optimistic from my understanding of plans. May 14 is when it all increases.

thats what I thought too. BTW will the wiring be ready for Dec? I know we arnt expecting many or any units to be ready to run then.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yep wiring is quite close to schedule. Should be ready autumn for driver training then I believe dec 13 all scottish services run via wigan with gradual introduction of electric stock then major revamp of tpe may 14.

 

[northwichcat]

He also promised a 30% increase in capicity by December

Bit of a misleading claim.

TPE are getting 23.3% more carriages than they have currently. However, the 350s have shorter carriages than the 185s and 170s. Also a lot of that extra capacity is for Scottish services and North TPE won't go to 5tph until May 2014.

If I didn't know anything about the proposed new timetable or new 350s I would assume that 30% more capacity would mean either 30% more trains or possibly that the 185s are going to 4 carriages and the 170s are staying as 2 carriages.

 

[khib70]

The guard on the service this morning from Huddersfield to Manchester announced that policy has changed so that First Class is no longer to be declassified on busy services.

He also promised a 30% increase in capicity by December, so apparently confident that the electric Scottish services will be up and running by then.

I use this service several times a year (the Edinburgh-Manchester bit) and I wish I shared the guard's optimism.

Anything would be an improvement on the hopelessly inadequate, uncomfortable, over-engineered 185's. But as long as you run a service between two of the country's largest cities, and turn it into a Manchester commuter service on the last leg of the journey, you're going to have capacity problems.

And I can already hear the responses about paths and line capacity, yada yada. How come 30 years ago BR managed to run proper intercity services between Scotland and Manchester (and Liverpool, which can't be reached direct from Edinburgh these days) without feeling the need to carry passengers from Salford Crescent to Deansgate at the same time?

 

[northwichcat]

How come 30 years ago BR managed to run proper intercity services between Scotland and Manchester (and Liverpool, which can't be reached direct from Edinburgh these days) without feeling the need to carry passengers from Salford Crescent to Deansgate at the same time?

What you have to remember is the December 2007 timetable change.

The Scottish services used to have their own express path but as a result of Virgin wanting more Voyagers to be able to operate VHF the Scottish service, as it was, was withdrawn and the replacement service is a diversion/extension of what was a Manchester Airport to Windermere service which had more stops between Manchester and Preston.

Also the Scottish services don't have Deansgate and Salford Crescent in the standard calling pattern but do have stations like Manchester Oxford Rd and Chorley in the standard calling pattern, which weren't in the standard calling pattern of the old express service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I use this service several times a year (the Edinburgh-Manchester bit) and I wish I shared the guard's optimism.

Anything would be an improvement on the hopelessly inadequate, uncomfortable, over-engineered 185's. But as long as you run a service between two of the country's largest cities, and turn it into a Manchester commuter service on the last leg of the journey, you're going to have capacity problems.

And I can already hear the responses about paths and line capacity, yada yada. How come 30 years ago BR managed to run proper intercity services between Scotland and Manchester (and Liverpool, which can't be reached direct from Edinburgh these days) without feeling the need to carry passengers from Salford Crescent to Deansgate at the same time?

Because virgin didn't want the route so it got cast off.
There will be some 8 car workings within the next year. And it is also to become an express service by being diverted via Wigan.

 

[gordonthemoron]

185s and 350s are very nice trains

 

[SkinnyDave]

Because virgin didn't want the route so it got cast off.
There will be some 8 car workings within the next year. And it is also to become an express service by being diverted via Wigan.

Going by modern railways mag this month, I think they want it back..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

185s and 350s are very nice trains

I like them for an hour or so journey but think they are not suitable for the Scottish routes

 

[185]

The guard on the service this morning from Huddersfield to Manchester announced that policy has changed so that First Class is no longer to be declassified on busy services.

One Conductor implementing the policy, which ultimately takes discretion away from the person who really needs it..

Most other Conductors would prefer Mr Lee, head of on board services to roll his policy up 'Greater Anglia' style and stick it..... err.... up his First Class.

If all seats are genuinely taken, it should be declassified. The company MD's misuse of the rolling stock by strengthening peak time Blackpool and Barrow services which are only full for 25 minutes from Manchester to Bolton/Horwich is plain disgusting.

 

[northwichcat]

The company MD's misuse of the rolling stock by strengthening peak time Blackpool and Barrow services which are only full for 25 minutes from Manchester to Bolton/Horwich is plain disgusting.

Well TOCs are supposed to aim for less than 20 minutes standing at peak times and not usually exceeding 35% of the seated capacity.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Going by modern railways mag this month, I think they want it back..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I like them for an hour or so journey but think they are not suitable for the Scottish routes

Yes they do, because the route is now hugely popular and they could make money from it! Typical Virgin.

Both units are fine to me, i have ridden both for several hours without problem.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes they do, because the route is now hugely popular and they could make money from it! Typical Virgin.

As it is they offer VWC+Connections Advance tickets where the connecting trains are TPE services between Manchester and Preston

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Well TOCs are supposed to aim for less than 20 minutes standing at peak times and not usually exceeding 35% of the seated capacity.

To be honest, peak time overcrowding and standing duration on the north tpe route isn't a cause for major concern (despite what Huddersfield and Dewsbury commuters say). I'd be more concerned about weekends and some other off peak times - when people do have to stand between Manchester to Leeds and often beyond, which they generally don't have to do at midweek commuter times.

The increased capacity will start to appear from December as 185s will be gradually released and will be used to strengthen at times. The electrics won't be in full service until May 14, when the new timetable will provide additional services.

 

[gordonthemoron]

where exactly do Manchester-Blackpool/Barrow/Scotland services cross the penines?

 

[northwichcat]

where exactly do Manchester-Blackpool/Barrow/Scotland services cross the penines?

They don't but DfT wanted to give the FNW 175s off North West routes to ATW so needed replacement rolling stock for those routes and thought the simplest solution was to put them in to the TPE franchise which was to get replacement rolling stock.

Scottish services replaced Windermere services as I explained earlier in the thread.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Where exactly do Manchester-Blackpool/Barrow/Scotland services cross the Pennines?

I note your query that the name of First Transpennine Express can signify in the actual location of those settlements you have named, but a franchise-type operating name does not necessarily signify the area in which it solely operates, as in my example on one of the two main lines that are equidistant to my residence, sees Arriva Trains Wales services running through Wilmslow station in our rather nice area of Cheshire East....

 

[northwichcat]

sees Arriva Trains Wales services running through Wilmslow station in our rather nice area of Cheshire East....

At least that service goes in to Wales eventually. The Crewe-Chester and Crewe-Shrewsbury services with ATW never go in to Wales, yet if a 158 or 175 are used on those services the PIS gives bilingual information.

You might have also noticed the Cheshire Connect livered buses with GHA/Vale Travel show the 'Sorry not in service' message in both Welsh and English despite being buses that should be used in Cheshire East and that one of the 'Vale of Llangollen Travel' bus operating licences is used exclusively for services in Cheshire East (they have another licence for the 'Vale of Llangollen Travel' services in Wales.)

 

[RPI]

Going by modern railways mag this month, I think they want it back..
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I like them for an hour or so journey but think they are not suitable for the Scottish routes

Desirio's are FAR superior to Voyagers and Pendo's in terms of passenger comfort!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The guard on the service this morning from Huddersfield to Manchester announced that policy has changed so that First Class is no longer to be declassified on busy services.

Many the time when returning from Newcastle, Durham or York in First Class on First TPE services to Manchester Airport in the evening peak, we note the population density of platform 16 at Leeds is something akin to population density of some of the Asian sub-continent high population countries, but it has only been on a very few occasions when the First Class section was deemed to be declassified. The Class 185 units only have a small First Class section with about 15 seats, which have always been fully booked by passengers on these journeys we travelled on.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Desirio's are FAR superior to Voyagers and Pendo's in terms of passenger comfort!

no they're not, although they are better than Electrostars and Turbostars

 

[northwichcat]

no they're not, although they are better than Electrostars and Turbostars

I prefer the seating on the 170s and on 170s you don't get the loud engine roar that you get on 185s - OK 185s are more powerful but wouldn't 3 car 170s have been better for routes like Manchester Airport to Blackpool?

 

[D1009]

Also the Scottish services don't have Deansgate and Salford Crescent in the standard calling pattern but do have stations like Manchester Oxford Rd and Chorley in the standard calling pattern, which weren't in the standard calling pattern of the old express service.

In the last days of steam, Chorley was in the calling pattern of the express services to Manchester Victoria, well some of them anyway.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

A leaflet produced by TPE explaining the situation:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Introducing first class on the North TPE route was a damned stupid idea anyway, unless it had been coupled with a vast increase in capacity. It was bad enough on the refurbished 158s, but when the 185s came in with even lower capacity the situation went from bad to worse. In the various threads discussing the future uses for 22X sets, the Waterloo-Exeter line is often ruled out due to the reduction in capacity compared to the 159s- but this is exactly what happened on TPE. I rarely travel in the peaks from Huddersfield, but even between the peaks if I'm heading East or West I tend to head straight for the disabled area on 185s, as there's very rarely any 'normal' standard class seats free.

 

[northwichcat]

Introducing first class on the North TPE route was a damned stupid idea anyway, unless it had been coupled with a vast increase in capacity. It was bad enough on the refurbished 158s, but when the 185s came in with even lower capacity the situation went from bad to worse. In the various threads discussing the future uses for 22X sets, the Waterloo-Exeter line is often ruled out due to the reduction in capacity compared to the 159s- but this is exactly what happened on TPE. I rarely travel in the peaks from Huddersfield, but even between the peaks if I'm heading East or West I tend to head straight for the disabled area on 185s, as there's very rarely any 'normal' standard class seats free.

Hull services didn't use to have First Class advertised as being available and quite often because the transpenniexpress branded 158s didn't stretch far enough to cover all the services, Hull got some 156s which were around 150 standard class seats.

While there were some 2 car 158s operating on TPE with only around 130 standard class seats, it was more common for them to be doubled up than it is now for the 170s or 185s to be doubled up on North TPE. I once caught a 8 car 158 formation on TPE after a special event and I seem to recall a HST getting borrowed from GNER on York Race Days.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Introducing first class on the North TPE route was a damned stupid idea anyway, unless it had been coupled with a vast increase in capacity.

Steady on there. My good lady wife now of some 72 years vintage travelled every two months from Manchester Airport to Durham for a period of four years that only ended earlier this year to chair a committee meeting. She found the first-class accommodation with seat reservations to be an excellent place to read through her meeting papers on the outward journey in quiet and comfort and the late afternoon return journey not to be one that crowds of standing passengers in standard class would be there to stop her reading her book in relative peace and quiet, after what seemed always to be a stressful meeting in Durham, on what is quite a long journey.

We both still use first-class accommodation on the Manchester Airport to York service with seat reservations when we often make a visit to that city.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Steady on there. My good lady wife now of some 72 years vintage travelled every two months from Manchester Airport to Durham for a period of four years that only ended earlier this year to chair a committee meeting. She found the first-class accommodation with seat reservations to be an excellent place to read through her meeting papers on the outward journey in quiet and comfort and the late afternoon return journey not to be one that crowds of standing passengers in standard class would be there to stop her reading her book in relative peace and quiet, after what seemed always to be a stressful meeting in Durham, on what is quite a long journey.

We both still use first-class accommodation on the Manchester Airport to York service with seat reservations when we often make a visit to that city.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going all 'Citizen Smith' about it- I just feel that the introduction of first class accomodation on Transpennine services showed the rather skewed priorities of (both Northern Spirit and their successors) management:

Overcrowding had been pretty bad through the Leeds-Huddersfield-Manchester core ever since the ending of loco-hauled services in 1992/3, yet capacity was reduced further by introducing first class, then reduced further still when the shiny new 185s were introduced (As VXC found out, frequency increases are not neccessarily a panacea for short-formed trains). Add to this the overstretching of the 185 fleet by adding the Manchester-Scotland services to FTPE (but with no extra stock allocated to cover this) and it's easy to see how growth is currently being suppressed on this route as it's simply not possible to fit any more people on the trains!

The leaflet posted a few posts back which declares the first class is a condition of the franchise agreement would suggest that blame lies with ORR/DfT rather than with FTPE themselves though.

I guess what I'm saying is, by all means have first class but not at the cost of the comfort of the majority of passengers. The FTPE services should really be a minimum of 5-cars long, with 1/2 of 1 car for first class. Of course, this costs money that doesn't seem to be worth spending on us dirty Northerners, though the burghers of Wool and Moreton get spoiled with shiny spacious 444s! [/rant]

 

[All Line Rover]

Having First Class on the 185s isn't a problem. The problem is the implementation of it - placing it in such as awkward position that it takes up the majority of one coach on a three coach train. First Class is better positioned on the 170s, by being in a small area at the end of one carriage.