No London Midland Trains - 23rd Dec '10

[bnm]

Tories are in we might as well get used to it

There have been other strikes sucessfully injuncted prior to May 2010, including the planned national strike by signallers over Easter this year. Who the government of the day is is irrelevant. No changes in Trade Union law have been made, nor are there any plans to. Although persistent strike action may see the Coalition begin to take a look at existing legislation.

Unions are doing their members a great disservice by not ensuring ballots comply with the law.

 

[A0]

with all due respect I find that insulting
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Tories are in we might as well get used to it

You may find it insulting. As somebody who works for a FTSE100 company which has seen pay freezes across the board for the last 2 years, I have little sympathy with the heavily unionised industries which refuse to modernise and persist in using strike action which inconveniences the customer. I can't believe it is a simple coincidence that these strikes are being called in close proximity to the festive season when many rail workers will be having time off in any case.

Perhaps it is time that the railways started providing a service on Boxing Day - which is something which happens in the rest of Europe.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article3090584.ece
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The ballot discreprencies involved 3 Yes 3 ballot papers out of 605!

Now even someone like me could understand if over 300 ballots papers had discreprencies, but 3 ballot papers when over 85% of thsoe who voted, voted yes, would hardly make a difference. But i suppose the law is the law no matter whether its an ass or not.

As well it also shows that London Midland seem to be unwilling to seriously sort out the harminisation problems, echos of NEG's ownership of the Greater Anglia franchise indeed.

Doesn't matter - the unions would expect anything the management did to be 100% watertight and by the book - it is perfectly reasonable for the company management to expect the same of the unions.

As another poster has observed, the unions are doing their members a great dis-service by not ensuring ballots are being properly conducted.

 

[313103]

Unions are doing their members a great disservice by not ensuring ballots comply with the law.

There in lies the problem, do you know that it took the union 7 months of cross references just to run a successfull ballot on Scotrail last year.

The union have to provide the company every detail they have, yet the law does not provide for the company the same details. So if by a quirke (often deliberatly) the company changes the location of a grade of staff, it is not obliged to give this info to the union. I have known ballots to be lost on the basis that the uion had left a letter out of someones name. Sometimes companies change or expand their portfolio by moving one sector of staff to a seperate yet wholly owned by parent company and do not have to tell the union they have done this.

Again a prime example when NEG owned the company i work for they created an anoyoumous organistaion called LONDON LINES that encompassed WAGN, Silverlink an c2c. The company would say these things are changing as a result of London Lines policy, when the union would say ok how about we ballot all the staff under the London Lines banner we were told you cant because none of the staff were direct London Lines employees.

 

[CarterUSM]

You may find it insulting. As somebody who works for a FTSE100 company which has seen pay freezes across the board for the last 2 years, I have little sympathy with the heavily unionised industries which refuse to modernise and persist in using strike action which inconveniences the customer. I can't believe it is a simple coincidence that these strikes are being called in close proximity to the festive season when many rail workers will be having time off in any case.

Perhaps it is time that the railways started providing a service on Boxing Day - which is something which happens in the rest of Europe.

Little sympathy, or a touch of the green eyed monster? As I've said elsewhere, if you have a problem with getting a pay freeze or your terms and conditions of employment then do something about it! As an aside, the SPT area of ScotRail has had a boxing day service for years. Fairly busy too.

 

[A0]

Little sympathy, or a touch of the green eyed monster? As I've said elsewhere, if you have a problem with getting a pay freeze or your terms and conditions of employment then do something about it! As an aside, the SPT area of ScotRail has had a boxing day service for years. Fairly busy too.

Not green eyed monster, because although it's been inconvenient, my income is sufficient for my outgoings.

The problem I have is that the railway is a service. Train drivers are paid reasonably well (bearing in mind the LM strike is the drivers not guards or other staff).

LM have inherited a number of drivers on different contracts and, rightly, under TUPE have protected the existing conditions. From what I can see they are now trying to 'normalise' conditions so all drivers are treated the same, but I suspect the ASLEF approach is to demand that the 'highest' or 'best' terms are applied to all. Why, in the current economic climate, should drivers be automatically rewarded with increased pay or holidays just because contracts have historically varied?

 

[Clip]

with all due respect I find that insulting
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Tories are in we might as well get used to it

With all due respect i also find your last comment insulting.. They had nothing to do with the strike.. They have changed no laws and there have been plenty of strikes in the last 13 years when there was a previous Political party in power.

This is the problem - You are confusing party politics with a dispute between a private company and its staff members.

The union have to provide the company every detail they have, yet the law does not provide for the company the same details.

I should think so too. The union are on their own account possibly shutting down a company from making any money and in doing so creating a lot of bother for people who use that company to get to work/recreation themselves.

Whilst i do understand why people go on strike - though never been out myself - Some people just cannot see past the attitude of them and us.
As a manager who was involved with talks a few years back its very difficult for managers to deal with too. Most of us want the best deal for our staff members but that has to be realistic. There are other people who want the best deal for them and the people who have invested in them in the first place.

Your staff collar you outside of work to discuss things, we had to work with 2 different unions who wanted 2 different things in the main and then non union people who wanted something else. Its a sodding minefield and you really have to make sure everything you do is minuted and correctly then processed because if its not and not to the reps liking they will throw out an agreed proposal and start again.

Like i need any more grief from my own boss for delaying the process.

 

[Pumbaa]

Why, in the current economic climate, should drivers be automatically rewarded with increased pay or holidays just because contracts have historically varied?

Quite. A trade-off, as would be made in most other cases, should be more than adequate. I have said before on other threads, I think drivers have it very well indeed compared to all other grades and have had their pay grossly over-inflated.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There have been other strikes sucessfully injuncted prior to May 2010, including the planned national strike by signallers over Easter this year. Who the government of the day is is irrelevant. No changes in Trade Union law have been made, nor are there any plans to. Although persistent strike action may see the Coalition begin to take a look at existing legislation.

Unions are doing their members a great disservice by not ensuring ballots comply with the law.

The Tories brought the existing legislation in, Labour should have revoked at least part of it but didn't, Tories have always hated unions, they always will that is a well known fact.

 

[bnm]

The current legislation regarding conduct of official ballots, on which the LM strike was successfully injuncted, is the Employment Relations Act 2004, in particular, section 22 of that Act.

Now, remind me. Which political party was in power when this legislation was drawn up?

 

[radamfi]

Little sympathy, or a touch of the green eyed monster? As I've said elsewhere, if you have a problem with getting a pay freeze or your terms and conditions of employment then do something about it! As an aside, the SPT area of ScotRail has had a boxing day service for years. Fairly busy too.

By that theory, everyone should go on strike indefinitely as it is possible to always be unhappy with terms/pay.

Scotland has traditionally had less of a closedown over Christmas than in England so services on 26 December isn't such a big deal. Conversely, New Years Day is a much bigger deal than in England so Scotland pretty much shuts down whereas in England trains are virtually normal and shops are open.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The current legislation regarding conduct of official ballots, on which the LM strike was successfully injuncted, is the Employment Relations Act 2004, in particular, section 22 of that Act.

Now, remind me. Which political party was in power when this legislation was drawn up?

damn you got me, HOWEVER what political party stripped Unions of most of there power AND made it almost impossible to strike/ a few amendments here and there dont change the basic premise

 

[A0]

damn you got me, HOWEVER what political party stripped Unions of most of there power AND made it almost impossible to strike/ a few amendments here and there dont change the basic premise

You really are talking bollocks aren't you?

The union legislation of the 1980s did not make it 'almost impossible to strike'. Quite the reverse in fact, in many respects it made strike action more legitimate.

It did made wildcat strikes called at the drop of a hat by both local shop stewards and union leadership illegal, instead stipulating that they actually had to consult their members, notify the employer of the intent to strike, and hold a ballot - in other words handing the decision on whether or not to strike to the union members - a concept which I believe is known as 'democracy' rather than an 'autocracy' or 'dictatorship'(i.e. one or two people making the decisions).

It was precisely the lack of such a ballot which destroyed Arthur Scargill's credibility. Had he called a ballot (as he was advised by many within the trades union movement and Labour party to do) and won, then he would have had a legitimiate strike. However, he chose not to, consequently there was always a doubt whether he would have won the ballot (areas like Notts weren't pro-Scargill) and in the eyes of many, the strike was illegitimate.

It also outlawed secondary picketing and strike action - which was perfectly reasonable. The companies who suffered from the 'secondary action' had no influence or control over the 'primary dispute', so why should they suffer from a loss of productivity or custom?

On the basis of what you've posted, I assume you'd prefer a return to unions being able to call strikes without ballots, without notice to the employers that such action should take place and a return to secondary action?

 

[RPM]

Let's get the facts straight. This isn't a matter of unions trying to squeeze a pay rise out of a company at a difficult time, this is about the fairness. LM was created out of parts of Central Trains and Silverlink Trains. Drivers inherited from the two companies have different terms and conditions and different salaries. Govia took on the franchise knowing that they needed to sort this out, but over three years on, they have failed to address the issue. They claim they can't afford to equalise the salaries but surely the cost of this should have formed part of their calculations when they made their bid? Did they deliberately take London Midland on intending to fob off ASLEF for the full term of the franchise or is this simly a case of incompetence? Who knows? Either way this was bound to lead to disruption. Why should people doing the same job for the same company be paid at different rates?

 

[A0]

Let's get the facts straight. This isn't a matter of unions trying to squeeze a pay rise out of a company at a difficult time, this is about the fairness. LM was created out of parts of Central Trains and Silverlink Trains. Drivers inherited from the two companies have different terms and conditions and different salaries. Govia took on the franchise knowing that they needed to sort this out, but over three years on, they have failed to address the issue. They claim they can't afford to equalise the salaries but surely the cost of this should have formed part of their calculations when they made their bid? Did they deliberately take London Midland on intending to fob off ASLEF for the full term of the franchise or is this simly a case of incompetence? Who knows? Either way this was bound to lead to disruption. Why should people doing the same job for the same company be paid at different rates?

Actually it is about the union trying to extract a pay rise and also maximise holiday entitlement. From what I can tell, the ASLEF approach is to demand the 'highest' or 'maximum' benefit from each contract. Sorry, but that's not negotiating, that's simply making demands and threatening strike action when they don't get it. That we are also at a time of economic problems, when many people have had pay freezes and reductions makes ASLEF's demands seem even more unreasonable to most reasonable people.

In any other industry when this scenario arises, there has to be some give and take on both sides. ASLEF don't appear to recognise this and instead tried to paralyse LM's network tomorrow. Unfortunately for them, they didn't do it properly and LM won a court injunction.

And as to 'why people should be paid differently for doing the same job' - I can think of plenty of reasons, length of service, experience, London 'weighting' for a start. The reason they are currently paid differently at LM is because TUPE meant LM had to protect the existing contracts. Perhaps we shouldn't have TUPE regulations and a new franchisee should be free to set up contracts from scratch?

 

[CarterUSM]

Scotland has traditionally had less of a closedown over Christmas than in England so services on 26 December isn't such a big deal. Conversely, New Years Day is a much bigger deal than in England so Scotland pretty much shuts down whereas in England trains are virtually normal and shops are open.

Yep, though a good service is provided on the 2nd January also.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Actually it is about the union trying to extract a pay rise and also maximise holiday entitlement. From what I can tell, the ASLEF approach is to demand the 'highest' or 'maximum' benefit from each contract. Sorry, but that's not negotiating, that's simply making demands and threatening strike action when they don't get it. That we are also at a time of economic problems, when many people have had pay freezes and reductions makes ASLEF's demands seem even more unreasonable to most reasonable people.

In any other industry when this scenario arises, there has to be some give and take on both sides. ASLEF don't appear to recognise this and instead tried to paralyse LM's network tomorrow. Unfortunately for them, they didn't do it properly and LM won a court injunction.

And as to 'why people should be paid differently for doing the same job' - I can think of plenty of reasons, length of service, experience, London 'weighting' for a start. The reason they are currently paid differently at LM is because TUPE meant LM had to protect the existing contracts. Perhaps we shouldn't have TUPE regulations and a new franchisee should be free to set up contracts from scratch?

You talk about give and take from both sides, now you sir are talking out of your rear end, TOC's do the same thing everytime, find the slightest (and in this case slightest isn't even the word) thing wrong (in this case 3 ballot papers) the courts bend over backwards (with pressure from government) agree and all it does is make relations even worse, if the TOC's had some common sense, they would attempt to meet half way, and with TUPE staff are protected, good, with the franchise system we have at present, every TOC could change the contract upon starting a new Franchise, if that happened you could pretty much guarantee that EVERY rail worker in the country would down tools so to speak, it would be a license to devalue and lower wages & T&C's for every member of the railway staff in this country, I take a very fair approach to what I read (e.g the Network rail staff pay rise which I actually feel is a reasonable deal) but what you are saying sir, it is obvious to myself and a few people you are living on another planet

 

[The Engineer]

Why should people doing the same job for the same company be paid at different rates?

Welcome to the real world! This is the norm in most areas of employment in my experience.....

 

[jopsuk]

If you're not unionised, it certainly is the norm. I don't know how much of a pay rise my colleagues are getting, other than a basic shift of the pay bands.

 

[RPM]

Actually it is about the union trying to extract a pay rise and also maximise holiday entitlement. From what I can tell, the ASLEF approach is to demand the 'highest' or 'maximum' benefit from each contract. Sorry, but that's not negotiating, that's simply making demands and threatening strike action when they don't get it. That we are also at a time of economic problems, when many people have had pay freezes and reductions makes ASLEF's demands seem even more unreasonable to most reasonable people.

In any other industry when this scenario arises, there has to be some give and take on both sides. ASLEF don't appear to recognise this and instead tried to paralyse LM's network tomorrow. Unfortunately for them, they didn't do it properly and LM won a court injunction.

And as to 'why people should be paid differently for doing the same job' - I can think of plenty of reasons, length of service, experience, London 'weighting' for a start. The reason they are currently paid differently at LM is because TUPE meant LM had to protect the existing contracts. Perhaps we shouldn't have TUPE regulations and a new franchisee should be free to set up contracts from scratch?

Well I can't comment on the demands that ASLEF have made but I'd be surprised if they were as unreasonable as you make out. Unlike other unions in the rail industry the ASLEF of today is quite a moderate and reasoned organisation and does not take industrial action lightly. The fact that this dispute has come this far is a reflection of the frustration people are feeling with the sheer incompetence and inaction of LM. The company could be run so much better, as indeed it was under Silverlink.

The reasons you give for people being paid different rates for the same job do of course all exist in various areas of the workplace but it only goes to back ASLEF's arguement because none of the things you mention apply here. That is the point - the pay differential is arbitary and unjustifiable.

I'm well aware of TUPE being the reason for the differential and it is essential that those regulations are in place. However, once the franchise changes hands it is then the responsibility of the operator to find a way towards harmonization in a timely manner, but all to often they seem to have no interest in doing so and then seem shocked when it breeds resentment and discontent.

 

[Wolfie]

A bit of light relief.....

How many things can they get wrong in one story (see bold)?

'King's Cross train drivers strike called off

22 Dec 2010

A pay strike involving 600 London Midland mainline train drivers which would have caused chaos at King's Cross tomorrow has been called off following a High Court injunction.

Operator East Coast successfully challenged the legality of the ballot.

Keith Norman, Aslef general secretary, said: “My opinion of the legal system is best not quoted.”

A London Midland spokesman said: “We are delighted that passengers will not have to face what would have been unnecessary disruption.”'
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ings-cross-train-drivers-strike-called-off.do

 

[Greenback]

Welcome to the real world! This is the norm in most areas of employment in my experience.....

Not in my experience, which includes the railway, Post Office, NHS and Civil Service. But of course, these ar eunionised and the organisations most hated by the media. Is there a conenction there I wonder?

Well I can't comment on the demands that ASLEF have made but I'd be surprised if they were as unreasonable as you make out. Unlike other unions in the rail industry the ASLEF of today is quite a moderate and reasoned organisation and does not take industrial action lightly.

Indeed, the unofficial RMT opinion of ALSEF is that they are the bosses pets...

A bit of light relief.....

How many things can they get wrong in one story (see bold)?

'King's Cross train drivers strike called off

22 Dec 2010

A pay strike involving 600 London Midland mainline train drivers which would have caused chaos at King's Cross tomorrow has been called off following a High Court injunction.

Operator East Coast successfully challenged the legality of the ballot.

Keith Norman, Aslef general secretary, said: “My opinion of the legal system is best not quoted.”

A London Midland spokesman said: “We are delighted that passengers will not have to face what would have been unnecessary disruption.”'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ings-cross-train-drivers-strike-called-off.do

Sums up the media perfectly. There appears to be little concern for accuracy these days. Politiicians learnt the art of spin from journalists! It's been great fun reading about Vince Cable on any Rupert Murdoch controleld medium!

 

[Wolfie]

Well I can't comment on the demands that ASLEF have made but I'd be surprised if they were as unreasonable as you make out. Unlike other unions in the rail industry the ASLEF of today is quite a moderate and reasoned organisation and does not take industrial action lightly.

Indeed, the unofficial RMT opinion of ALSEF is that they are the bosses pets....

Not on the Tube IF you believe the Standard.....
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...d-legal-bid-to-halt-boxing-day-tube-strike.do

 

[The Engineer]

Not in my experience, which includes the railway, Post Office, NHS and Civil Service. But of course, these ar eunionised and the organisations most hated by the media. Is there a conenction there I wonder?

The real world = non-government or non-nationalised industry. Railway workers need to realise they are in the real world of business.....

 

[radamfi]

Yep, though a good service is provided on the 2nd January also.

Scotland having 2 days of complete shutdown (25 Dec and 1 Jan) is no better than in most of England also with 2 days of complete shutdown (25-26 Dec). Some parts of SE England run limited service on 26 Dec. So nothing to be proud of.

Much of Europe run much the same timetable 365 days a year including Christmas Day, New Years Day, Sundays etc., particularly on longer distance services. The main exception I can think of is Dutch trains shutting down for 5 hours from 2000 on 31 Dec to 0100 on 1 Jan, which neighbouring countries think is a bit strange.

 

[CarterUSM]

Scotland having 2 days of complete shutdown (25 Dec and 1 Jan) is no better than in most of England also with 2 days of complete shutdown (25-26 Dec). Some parts of SE England run limited service on 26 Dec. So nothing to be proud of.

I'm far from proud of it, merely pointing it out. Don't remember saying it was better either.

 

[Greenback]

Not in my experience, which includes the railway, Post Office, NHS and Civil Service. But of course, these ar eunionised and the organisations most hated by the media. Is there a conenction there I wonder?

The real world = non-government or non-nationalised industry. Railway workers need to realise they are in the real world of business.....

The real world of business is not all good. I'd love to hear how the real world will improve the NHS, it hasn't done much for the Post Office.

Come to think of it, the real world of business hasn't covered itself in much glory in the banking sector has it? Yet over the last three decades it has been continually held up as shining example of brilliance, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Where shall I start with examples? Price fixing by the energy companies? Irresponsible lending? Insurance misselling? Let's introduce some of this flair into vital public services shall we? Let's dial 999 for an ambulance and go to a call centre in India, where we can be held in a queue for ten minutes listening to the theme from Doctor Zhivago, because that is exactly the sort of thing that will happen in the real world of business unless we fight to prevent it.

 

[Nevasleep]

Scotland having 2 days of complete shutdown (25 Dec and 1 Jan) is no better than in most of England also with 2 days of complete shutdown (25-26 Dec). Some parts of SE England run limited service on 26 Dec. So nothing to be proud of.

Much of Europe run much the same timetable 365 days a year including Christmas Day, New Years Day, Sundays etc., particularly on longer distance services. The main exception I can think of is Dutch trains shutting down for 5 hours from 2000 on 31 Dec to 0100 on 1 Jan, which neighbouring countries think is a bit strange.

I don't see a problem a with shutting down for Christmas Day/Boxing Day.
I think its crazy that airports stay open too

 

[TomJ93]

Didn't notice it was called off, there seemed to be a very limited LM service but far more than I expected. I got away with LM Super-off peak on a VT earlier.