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No case: why are so many NIMBY’s protesting against rail infrastructure?

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dangie

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Really? More ugly than, say, a coal-fired power station? I know which one I’d rather see in the landscape.
Yes but how many wind turbines do you need to replace one coal fired power station? What is the output of an average onshore wind turbine?

I certainly have no problem with offshore wind farms, but I hate to see wind turbines blotting our beautiful hillsides.
 
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Magdalia

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I hate to see wind turbines blotting our beautiful hillsides.
Some hillsides are beautiful but lots of others are bleak and bland, and improved by adding some wind turbines.

To misquote Wordsworth:

I wander'd lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er bleak bland hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host of silver steel windmills,
Beyond the lakes, above the trees
Spinning and turning in the breeze.
 

Giugiaro

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Why might this be? In a time when the rail network is full to the brim, why are people seemingly so anti rail?

"If I'm not going/want to use this thing, I don't want it near me, my family or my property."

Suburbanisation has also played a part in this. People feel they have a right to their property and the environment around them, and will do everything to prevent any change to the status quo, even if that means turning other people's lives into a nightmare.
They only accept changes whenever it benefits them, i.e. the value of their property increases without any of that noise and barrier nonsense.

Even revitalizing an abandoned field for agriculture can be a pain if the two or three nearby houses remember that it's going to smell of manure for days at least one or two times a day, and that crops will make a lot of dust when harvested.
 

dangie

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It’s 375 according to this BBC bitesize article https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8k9v9q/revision/4
I know very little about the specifications of wind turbines, but I’d guess for maximum efficiency they need to be spaced not less than a set distance from each other. 375 wind turbines would take up an awful lot of lot of land area.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Some hillsides are beautiful but lots of others are bleak and bland, and improved by adding some wind turbines.
Bleak and bland is beautiful. Take the dark open moorlands of Kinder Scout & Saddleworth Moor for example. Would you really like to see them covered by wind turbines?
 

generalnerd

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I know very little about the specifications of wind turbines, but I’d guess for maximum efficiency they need to be spaced not less than a set distance from each other. 375 wind turbines would take up an awful lot of lot of land area.
Oh yeah, I don’t think wind power works to replace fossil fuels. A few onshore turbines to supplement power generated offshore is alright I think.

Wind should be used in co-operation with nuclear, while solar (not mentioned on this thread) should be used to power individual houses and buildings.

However nuclear also gets a lot of NIMBY responses, which are sometimes the most fictional of them all. For example, I’ve heard about a story where a local shop worker claimed a nuclear reactor was on as he had a headache. What he didn’t know was that the reactor hadn’t been operating for weeks…
 

Bald Rick

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It’s 375 according to this BBC bitesize article https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8k9v9q/revision/4

That article is rather out of date.

Obviously coal plants in this country were various sizes, but those decommissioned in the last decade or so were typically 1GW or 2GW. The BBC went halfway at 1.5GW.

Offshore windfarms under construction now typically have turbines rated up to 14MW, so that’s 72 turbines per GW at full power, 108 for 1.5GW.

Now of course offshore wind turbines don’t produce full power the whole time, but then neither did coal power stations. If you assume that when coal was baseload, they ran at 70% of their capacity over the course of the year (Drax is a little less than this) and offshore wind at 35% (it is usually between 30-40%), then you need 144 wind turbines to produce as much electricity as a 1GW baseload coal power station over the course of the year, or twice as many for 2GW.

There is currently 5GW of offshore wind under construction, with a further 15GW with planning consent in the final stages of financing / pre construction, all of which should be in service within 4 years. At typical capacity factors, this will produce the same power each year as 14 x Ironbridge Power stations (1GW) when it was baseload. I think most people will agree that a couple of thousand turbines in the North Sea is much more preferable to 14 coal power stations.
 
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Magdalia

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Take the dark open moorlands of Kinder Scout & Saddleworth Moor for example. Would you really like to see them covered by wind turbines?
Go a bit further north. Rishworth Moor already has the M62 and two pylon lines. It is ideal for wind turbines.
 

dangie

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Offshore windfarms under construction now typically have turbines rated up to 14MW, so that’s 72 turbines per GW at full power, 108 for 1.5GW.
As yet (I think) there aren’t onshore wind turbines with that capacity. They are huge beasts.
Now of course offshore wind turbines don’t produce full power the whole time, but then neither did coal power stations.
No they didn’t, but they could when required. Wind can only produce full power if/when the wind is sufficient.
I think most people will agree that a couple of thousand turbines in the North Sea is much more preferable to 14 coal power stations.
Of that I have no problem. Offshore is the best site for them and probably the most consistent wind strength.
 

AndrewE

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Less than every 60 seconds in the peak on average.
20 or 30 (or more) years ago I remember reading that research had been done about how transport noise affected (i.e. antagonised) people. They found that aeroplane noise was almost universally hated; road noise (continuous drone or intermittent) upset people too, but rail noise was least disliked. I have a feeling that intermittent distant trains were no problem (I would say they are an enhancement!) and even people close by densely-trafficked lines didn't mind much.
 

generalnerd

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Now of course offshore wind turbines don’t produce full power the whole time, but then neither did coal power stations. If you assume that when coal was baseload, they ran at 70% of their capacity over the course of the year (Drax is a little less than this) and offshore wind at 35% (it is usually between 30-40%), then you need 144 wind turbines to produce as much electricity as a 1GW baseload coal power station over the course of the year, or twice as many for 2GW
Oh wow! 144 is not a lot!
 

Bald Rick

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Oh wow! 144 is not a lot!

Yep. And to put that in context, if every single diesel train on the GB network was converted to electric haulage, it would need the electricity produced by about 60 of these turbines over the course of a year.
 

generalnerd

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Yep. And to put that in context, if every single diesel train on the GB network was converted to electric haulage, it would need the electricity produced by about 60 of these turbines over the course of a year.
The whole network or per train?
 

Bald Rick

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I’d love to see your calculation on that :)

2023/24 traction diesel used was 557 million litres (source, ORR envirnomental report)

Energy capacity of diesel is 38.3 MJ/litre

Total energy 21.3 billion MJ = 5920 GWh

Diesels are 40% efficient at the very best; electrics are above 90% (more with regen), but lets assume 90%.

5920 GWh *0.4 / 0.9 = 2631 GWh of electricity for traction.

Each 14MW turbine, on a 35% capacity factor, will generate 14x24x365x.35/1000 GWh per year = 43GWh

2631 / 43 = 61 (about 60 :))
 

dangie

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… In a time when the rail network is full to the brim, why are people seemingly so anti rail?
It’s not really difficult to see why. Over the last few years in the public’s eye the railways have become a bit of a joke, and not in a funny way. The railway has only itself to blame. This isn’t me, a railway enthusiast, slagging off the railways, but Joe Public who doesn’t know if their train will even run never mind be on time.

All this gives the NIMBY’s perfect ammunition to become anti-rail.
 

generalnerd

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It’s not really difficult to see why. Over the last few years in the public’s eye the railways have become a bit of a joke, and not in a funny way. The railway has only itself to blame. This isn’t me, a railway enthusiast, slagging off the railways, but Joe Public who doesn’t know if their train will even run never mind be on time.

All this gives the NIMBY’s perfect ammunition to become anti-rail.
Yes, but they seemingly don’t see that it is full/as in need of being fixed. They often say that other parts of the network are under utilised, especially when campaigning against HS2. They often seem to to think that because a random single track line in Stafford hasn’t got all its paths used up that the network will be able to run more trains down the west coast main line to London…
Its not NIMBYism, its BANANAism

Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone!

Regards

Ian
Hahahaha! I’ll have to use that in future!!!
 

The Ham

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Its not NIMBYism, its BANANAism

Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone!

Regards

Ian

I would agree, a lot of it appears to be that they don't want change.

I would also suggest that there's a fear that they won't be able to drive where they want to.

Almost universally when anything is proposed the big concern is around traffic.

A classic example is when talking about HS2 it's fairly common to find locals talking about (say) "700 lorries a day" and then comparing that to a lorry every minute.

That sounds quite a lot, until you stand by the side of a road and say "right a lorry goes past", then look at your watch for a minute and then say "next lorry". As, unless you're looking at a residential street or a road which doesn't really go anywhere, the impact would likely be less than many fear.

You see the same with houses, people say "those 500 homes will add 1,000 or more cars to the network and it'll be gridlock" the thing is it very much depends on when those cars are going to be used.

Use them at 3 in the morning and they'll cause no traffic problems at all. The critical time is in the peak hour, when typically those 500 homes would add around 330 cars to the network.

330 cars again sounds a lot, however, other than at the site access, the reality is that they get split up quite quickly.

For 500 homes there would be at least 2 accesses, which maybe onto more than one road, however even if it's to the same road, some will go left some will go right, then at the next (significant) junction (i.e. one that goes somewhere and not just to another residential estate, although even then there's a skin chance that one or two cars may go there) the traffic will split again.

As such those 330 cars quite quickly get split so there's less than 100 cars going along a road, even where there's a key route that most people will want to go along.

Pass a shop, doctors, dentist, some offices, or a school and the numbers will drop away,

Also not all traffic will be new traffic, for example the bin lorries or post office vans are likely to not increase their numbers to serve that number of homes. Likewise "new* bus routes could be extensions of existing routes, and may actually mean that some existing trips switch to being undertaken by bus as that's now viable.

It's also worth noting that when designing traffic signals it is assumed that you can get 3 cars across the so line in 7 seconds of green time (assuming that's the total length of green for that traffic), that equals over 1,500 cars an hour in one direction. When you compare that to those extra 330 cars from those 500 new homes, they start to look fairly limited in number, especially given it'll typically be that it's around 230 are going in one direction.

That's before you consider that it may well be that those 500 new homes may come with other facilities. For example, that's of a size that it could be required to build a 1 form entry primary school on site, as such, even if people drive there from those 500 homes, they wouldn't actually be driving on any of the existing roads, so won't be making traffic worse.

Likewise, it could be large enough to need to provide a shop or there could be mixed use, so you have some office space built on a portion of the land. All of which can reduce the impact of the traffic on the wider network by reducing the need for people who are driving to drive on the existing roads.
 

jon0844

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I have noticed as of late that many more anti-rail nimbys have been making statements. This might just be because they have discovered social media, but with projects like East-West rail and HS2 you have not insignificant amounts of residents protesting against a railway line, with many claiming it as ‘bad for the environment’ or ‘ruining their kids future’ or ‘having no case’ (as seen in my posts title)

Maybe they're on a Facebook group that has been taken over by people promoting political parties like Reform, who would want to promote road building and keeping ICE cars, at the expense of electric vehicles, cycle infastructure, batteries (Richard Tice wanted to ban their use for commercial and possibly even home use, although quickly backtracked this week when called out), taxing solar farms, scrapping net zero in general, and everything to protect the oil and gas industries.

There are many think tanks to tell you that railways aren't the future, it's the 'freedom' of owning a car, 15 minute cities are an attempt by the global elites to keep you prisoner and so on.

Before you know it, people are voting against their best interests because they believe this is a commonly held view.

(tl;dr - yes, social media is possibly the reason people are now making such statements, because they're exposed to extreme views that are paid for to manipulate people).

Don't get me wrong, people must be given the power to contest things like the specifics of the actual location of any given mast/railway line and be able to make changes/amendments to plans, but not scrap things entirely - and not delay projects by many years through multiple objections.
 

The Ham

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There are many think tanks to tell you that railways aren't the future, it's the 'freedom' of owning a car, 15 minute cities are an attempt by the global elites to keep you prisoner and so on.

As someone who lives the 15 minutes city lifestyle (walks to work, having walked their kids to school - even though I live in a settlement of 10,000 people), I can tell you that if this what prison feels like maybe it's time to do some crime...
 

dangie

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I really wouldn't mind having a view of them from my house. They're graceful looking bits of infrastructure. Even the noise is soothing.
Each to their own :)
I actually wouldn’t mind either, as long as I had a beach front house and the wind turbines were five miles out to sea.
 

Bald Rick

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Each to their own :)
I actually wouldn’t mind either, as long as I had a beach front house and the wind turbines were five miles out to sea.

They are usually a lot further out than that, and you can still see them! (well the top half of them anyway).

For example you can see Gwynt Y Môr from the south shore at Blackpool, and that’s a good 30 miles away.
 

generalnerd

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They are usually a lot further out than that, and you can still see them! (well the top half of them anyway).

For example you can see Gwynt Y Môr from the south shore at Blackpool, and that’s a good 30 miles away.
You can see the Dogger Bank turbines from Hornsea or Brid on a clear day
 

BlueLeanie

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It's all becoming quite tiresome.

Perhaps it's time that individuals are required to submit a formal, published "register of interests" (similar to Councillors or MPs) when they seek to influence a planning decision.

Should give a bit of clarity when individuals in the University or local authority pension schemes (who invest heavily in oil, gas, and vehicle manufacturing) are campaigning against public transport. Or those that have large property rental portfolios

Would also give some clarity to the situation when a dozen different anti-rail organisations turn out to have the same core membership of a handful of people that seem to have a louder voice than the 150,000 people who'll use the station year-in, year-out.
 

Acfb

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For most people the issue isn't the sight of the turbines, it is the noise. Right up close, the noise of a wind turbine is over 100dB. Even at distance they're still loud enough, about 45-50dB at 300 metres. And those are the declared sound levels by the manufacturers, so take them with a pinch of salt.

The World Health Organisation says anything over 40dB will disturb sleep and cause adverse health effects:



So no, I wouldn't want wind turbines built half a mile from my house.


As I've said on the Heathrow expansion thread, it is interesting how "the national interest" always seems to miraculously swerve around the areas where the wealthiest people live. Take HS2, which goes underneath Amersham and the Chalfonts (lots of millionaires) and goes through Brackley (not many millionaires). And it was the same further north, the proposed route of HS2 into Manchester carefully avoided the richest bits of the Cheshire stockbroker belt.

It's always been the way. The London Ringways project suddenly died when they started considering the wholesale demolition of some rather nice parts of North London. When it was just the poors who were having the Westway flyover built by their bedroom window nobody gave a toss. When the A12 Eastern Avenue was upgraded in the 90s they flattened Leytonstone but tunnelled underneath leafy Wantead.

I get why developers take a pragmatic approach- you don't pick on people who can fight back- but still.

Starmer and Reeves both profess to hate "NIMBYs". Starmer owns £10M of prime development land in Surrey and has previously opposed developments near it as they might affect the value of his land. Reeves, so demanding of airport expansions, opposed the expansion of Leeds Bradford as it was near her house. Funny how these things go.

I have relatives in Brackley. I wouldn't say HS2 has affected Brackley itself at all as it passes just to the north of the town. The NIMBY protests were mainly in nearby Greatworth etc. Can't say I have that much sympathy though as people in that area do have access to Banbury, Kings Sutton and both Bicester stations. People shouldn't be allowed to block national infrastructure such as HS2.
 
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dcbwhaley

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Bleak and bland is beautiful. Take the dark open moorlands of Kinder Scout & Saddleworth Moor for example. Would you really like to see them covered by wind turbines?
No. But neither do I want them devastated by wildfires as a result of global warming.
 

BrianW

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'I don't want anything built to spoil my view of the countryside that was left after my house was built on what had been green fields, not even for my darling offspring, whose Uni fees I paid and now they want me to stump up the deposit for them and to help pay the mortgage, etc, etc. I've worked hard for this, to leave as their inheritance ... I hope they'll be grateful, and look after me in the care home ...
 
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