No appropriate routeing points - what to do?

[IrishDave]

Is there some advice somewhere in the routeing guide, or somewhere else that I might have missed, as to what to do when there are *no* appropriate routeing points for a journey?

Scenario: I am attempting to determine the permitted routes between Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Ebbw Vale Parkway (EBV). Cheltenham is a routeing point. Ebbw Vale Parkway is only associated to Cardiff Central (CDF). Fares check: an Anytime Day Single on CNM-CDF is £17.90, while an Anytime Day Single CNM-EBV is £11.40. There are no other single fares in either case, and thus Cardiff fails the fares check.

If my working is correct, there are no appropriate routeing points for this journey, even though there is only one routeing point for Ebbw Vale Parkway! It is clearly valid via the shortest route - thus Cheltenham-Cardiff via Lydney and then up to Ebbw Vale - but I would like the freedom to go via Bristol Parkway on the return. If it weren't for the fares check, this would be a permitted route.

(That said, tomorrow there are engineering works; Newport-Cardiff is shut until 16:00, and the Ebbw Vale service is diverted to run to and from Newport - so is the shortest route in fact Cheltenham-Newport-Ebbw Vale, and the ticket not valid at all except for tomorrow before 16:00?!)

Any help would be gratefully appreciated!

 

[clagmonster]

The National Routeing Guide instructions state:
"If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin station is
the correct one compare the fare from that routeing point to the destination
with the fare for the throughout journey - it is an appropriate routeing point
only if that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey
from the origin station to the destination station.
Follow the same procedure if you are not certain that a particular routeing
point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from
that routeing point to the origin station with the fare for the throughout
journey - it is an appropriate routeing point only if that fare is the same or
lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the
destination station."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf page 3

Surely if there is only one routeing point for the destination, then you can't possibly be unsure whether it is the correct one, as it is the only possibility therefore there is no reasonable need to apply the test so you never find out that it would fail. My understanding has always been to carry out the fare check only when there is more than one routeing point for a station.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's possible you may be overthinking the problem. Don't forget the first two rules in the routeing guide:

• The shortest route (with reference to the National Rail Timetable) over which a regular passenger service operates is ALWAYS permitted, as is one no more than three miles longer.
• A through train is ALWAYS permitted.

If either of those apply, you need go no further.

By my reckoning, the shortest route from Cheltenham Spa to Ebbw Vale Parkway is 91.75 miles via Gloucester, Newport and Cardiff Central (from Tables 57 and 127 of the NRT).

As Ebbw Vale Parkway only has one routeing point, no fares check is necessary, so you can skip straight to determining permitted routes between Cheltenham Spa and Cardiff Central. Those can be found on Map CE.

That allows Cheltenham - Gloucester/Bristol - Newport - Cardiff, and that's your lot.

 

[bb21]

The shortest route is via Cardiff, because there is no booked service between Gaer Junction and Park Junction. The existence of such a service on a temporary basis tomorrow does not alter the calculation of the shortest route.

Although Cardiff fails fares check, Example 2: Par - Pontypridd, on Page F13 of Section F of the National Routeing Guide, states in Step 4 that,

Par has one routeing point, Plymouth Group, so no further selection is necessary. Pontypridd has one routeing point, Cardiff Central so no further selection is necessary.

It proceeds to look up mapped routes in Step 5 between Plymouth Group and Cardiff Central without any mention of fares check being performed. Therefore it is my belief that when a station is only associated with one Routeing Point, it is intended to be taken automatically as an appropriate Routeing Point. This is however against some of the instructions contained in the Routeing Guide so some people might well disagree with this interpretation.

 

[benk1342]

As Ebbw Vale Parkway only has one routeing point, no fares check is necessary, so you can skip straight to determining permitted routes between Cheltenham Spa and Cardiff Central. Those can be found on Map CE.

For what it's worth, trainscanbecheaper.info's interpretation of the routeing guide doesn't agree---it claims that Cheltenham Spa to Ebbw Vale Parkway via Bristol Parkway fails the fares check, suggesting that the fares check applies even when there is only one routeing point.

----EDIT----

Although Cardiff fails fares check, Example 2: Par - Pontypridd, on Page F13 of Section F of the National Routeing Guide, states in Step 4 that,



It proceeds to look up mapped routes in Step 5 between Plymouth Group and Cardiff Central without any mention of fares check being performed. Therefore it is my belief that when a station is only associated with one Routeing Point, it is intended to be taken automatically as an appropriate Routeing Point. This is however against some of the instructions contained in the Routeing Guide so some people might well disagree with this interpretation.

Well spotted. This example persuades me that the fares check does not apply when there is only one routeing point.

 

[IrishDave]

It's possible you may be overthinking the problem. Don't forget the first two rules in the routeing guide:

• The shortest route (with reference to the National Rail Timetable) over which a regular passenger service operates is ALWAYS permitted, as is one no more than three miles longer.
• A through train is ALWAYS permitted.

There are no direct trains Cheltenham-Ebbw Vale, so we can ignore that. The shortest route depends on whether the third side of the triangle at Newport counts as a "route which can be used by scheduled passenger services" (NRCoC, 13(a)(ii)). If not, then indeed the route via Lydney and Cardiff is the shortest.

I'm aware that the NRT is used to determine shortest routes, but on what authority? What makes it the final arbiter of what the shortest route is? I can't find it in the NRCoC...

As Ebbw Vale Parkway only has one routeing point, no fares check is necessary, so you can skip straight to determining permitted routes between Cheltenham Spa and Cardiff Central.

I guess it boils down to whether the fares check is necessary when there's only one routeing point. That doesn't seem to be clear from the Routeing Guide. If it isn't - and I quite agree that's a reasonable interpretation - then fair enough, it's valid via Bristol Parkway. If it is necessary, then are there simply no mapped routes?

The shortest route is via Cardiff, because there is no booked service between Gaer Junction and Park Junction. The existence of such a service on a temporary basis tomorrow does not alter the calculation of the shortest route.

I'm not sure about this. The NRCoC says routes which can be used by scheduled passenger services, not routes which are used by scheduled passenger services. I'd argue "can be used" could mean "signalled to passenger standards".

Although Cardiff fails fares check, Example 2: Par - Pontypridd, on Page F13 of Section F of the National Routeing Guide, states in Step 4 that [example snipped]

It proceeds to look up mapped routes in Step 5 between Plymouth Group and Cardiff Central without any mention of fares check being performed. Therefore it is my belief that when a station is only associated with one Routeing Point, it is automatically taken to be an appropriate Routeing Point. This is however against some of the instructions contained in the Routeing Guide so some people might well disagree with this interpretation.

Ah, I hadn't spotted that example, thanks for that. But which instructions does it contravene?

 

[kieron]

There are no direct trains Cheltenham-Ebbw Vale, so we can ignore that. The shortest route depends on whether the third side of the triangle at Newport counts as a "route which can be used by scheduled passenger services" (NRCoC, 13(a)(ii)). If not, then indeed the route via Lydney and Cardiff is the shortest.

I'm aware that the NRT is used to determine shortest routes, but on what authority? What makes it the final arbiter of what the shortest route is? I can't find it in the NRCoC...

It's in the Routeing Guide. Check "Calculating Shortest Distances" on page 1 of the instructions, together with the last sentence of the section before it.

I guess it boils down to whether the fares check is necessary when there's only one routeing point. That doesn't seem to be clear from the Routeing Guide. If it isn't - and I quite agree that's a reasonable interpretation - then fair enough, it's valid via Bristol Parkway. If it is necessary, then are there simply no mapped routes?

Quite simply, yes. There are plenty of examples of this. For instance, Frodsham is associated with three routeing points, all further west. As such, many tickets to places further east, such as Frodsham-Leeds, have no mapped routes.

 

[maniacmartin]

It's in the Routeing Guide. Check "Calculating Shortest Distances" on page 1 of the instructions, together with the last sentence of the section before it.

The NRCoC makes no mention of consulting the Routeing Guide to find the shortest route, nor does it directly mention the NRT. The Routeing Guide only needs to be consulted to find mapped routes - and when you do you then learn that the shortest route as defined using NRT distances is also valid.

On this basis, I have successfully persuaded a TOC to allow me to use a shortest route as defined by other (non-NRT) data in the past.

 

[benk1342]

The NRCoC says routes which can be used by scheduled passenger services, not routes which are used by scheduled passenger services. I'd argue "can be used" could mean "signalled to passenger standards".

I'd argue it means routes that "can be used by you as a passenger on scheduled passenger services". Whether this means routes over which scheduled passenger services pass on a regularly scheduled (however infrequent) basis (as seems to be the general consensus here)---or routes that you could use on the day or within the general timeframe you had in mind---is I think a valid question.

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure about this. The NRCoC says routes which can be used by scheduled passenger services, not routes which are used by scheduled passenger services. I'd argue "can be used" could mean "signalled to passenger standards".

But there is no regular scheduled passenger service between Gaer Junction and Park Junction.

The key is the term in bold.

Otherwise tickets such as Patricroft - Wigan Stations would be unusable, simply because Parkside Junction - Lowton Junction is passenger rated.

 

[Eagle]

Otherwise tickets such as Patricroft - Wigan Stations would be unusable, simply because Parkside Junction - Lowton Junction is passenger rated.

Ah, but there are regular scheduled passenger services using Lowton–Parkside. This one and this one. The clue in the NRTT being that both call at Wigan (although of course that could mean they're going via Atherton for all you know).

In the Patricroft case I'd say that since there is no regular scheduled passenger service from Patricroft itself that uses this curve then it should not be considered in the shortest route calculations.

When the curve gets a more frequent TPE service at the next timetable change I wouldn't be surprised if there was a positive easement introduced that specifically states this though (i.e. "Journeys from Eccles or Patricroft to Wigan NW and stations beyond may travel via Manchester" or something to that effect).

 

[bb21]

In the Patricroft case I'd say that since there is no regular scheduled passenger service from Patricroft itself that uses this curve then it should not be considered in the shortest route calculations.

Exactly. It is not a usable route between the origin and the destination in this case, so cannot possibly be the shortest route.

My point is that if shortest route calculation can be based on passenger rated tracks, then Patricroft - Wigan Station has no permitted routes, as there is no direct train, and there would be no journey opportunity using the "shortest route" via Parkside Junction - Lowton Junction because no train using that chord calls at Patricroft. There is no mapped route either as Patricroft is associated with Wigan Group.

 

[SickyNicky]

Therefore it is my belief that when a station is only associated with one Routeing Point, it is intended to be taken automatically as an appropriate Routeing Point. This is however against some of the instructions contained in the Routeing Guide so some people might well disagree with this interpretation.

Section 4.3.1 of the (unavailable to the public) NRG (National Routeing Guide) rules document does not allow for this. It's clear that a fares check must be performed for all routeing points at both ends and if either of the routeing points are not appropriate (i.e. they fail the fares check) the route is not permitted.

Where there are no mapped routes, we are left with just the shortest route or through trains. And yes, this could lead to situations where there are no permitted routes at all. This is clearly daft, but who said the routeing guide was sensible?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For what it's worth, trainscanbecheaper.info's interpretation of the routeing guide doesn't agree---it claims that Cheltenham Spa to Ebbw Vale Parkway via Bristol Parkway fails the fares check, suggesting that the fares check applies even when there is only one routeing point.

That's correct. trainscanbecheaper.info tries to perform a fares check even when there is only one possible routeing point. Although it's clear that the passenger must travel that way, the rules appear to be clear and TCBC is an attempt at a strict interpretation of the rules.

Many of us don't like the rules, but that's not the point.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Section 4.3.1 of the (unavailable to the public) NRG (National Routeing Guide) rules document does not allow for this. It's clear that a fares check must be performed for all routeing points at both ends and if either of the routeing points are not appropriate (i.e. they fail the fares check) the route is not permitted.

Where there are no mapped routes, we are left with just the shortest route or through trains. And yes, this could lead to situations where there are no permitted routes at all. This is clearly daft, but who said the routeing guide was sensible?....

Are you refering to the rules used by Journey planners? I can fully understand a computer always doing a check because it can't use common sense and that is far simpler than telling it every possible 'sensible' routeing point for every station and journey on the network.

However, rail staff are supposed to use the Routeing Guide on the ATOC website.

 

[SickyNicky]

Are you refering to the rules used by Journey planners? I can fully understand a computer always doing a check because it can't use common sense and that is far simpler than telling it every possible 'sensible' routeing point for every station and journey on the network.

However, rail staff are supposed to use the Routeing Guide on the ATOC website.

I am, yes. These are the rules for programmers of the routeing guide interpretations built into journey planners.

However, I accept the the text version of the routeing guide instructions is vague on this point and step 4 could be said to mean the "if there is only one possible routeing point you can be sure that this is the correct one and thus not have to apply a fares check". This is the reasonable thing to do.

Edit: As with all these things, it's a grey area. I have no objection to trainscanbecheaper offering routes via single routeing points on these occasions, perhaps with a difference colour header to let the user know the routeing is contentious.

 

[Goatboy]

Given that it doesn't seem possible to even get to Ebbw Vale Parkway without first passing through Cardiff, why is the ticket to Ebbw Vale so much cheaper than that to Cardiff? It seems like a needlessly cheap ticket, only 11 quid for a journey of that distance seems disproportionately good value for money compared with the ticket to Cardiff.