No "Any Permitted" fare

[dd1]

I would like to buy an off-peak return from Kenilworth to Egham. I see three fares (and three routes) on brfares:

• ✠VIA HIGH WYCOMBE (restriction WM) set by Chiltern,
• ✠VIA LONDON (restriction 2C) set by Avanti, and
• VIA OXFORD (restriction 2V) set by Crosscountry.

There is no "Any Permitted" fare. I would like to have flexibility in the choice of route, however. The difference in price is not big enough to faff with an excess: that is, for this journey, I'm looking to simplify things and would be happy to buy the most expensive of the three (which is the Chiltern one). But I'm not clear whether it does actually entitle me to take the other two routes.

For the WM-restricted (Chiltern) fare, brfares shows unpublished restrictions such as "Not valid to depart LONDON EUSTON at any time on AVANTI WEST COAST", which does not increase my confidence level. The 2C-restricted (via London) fare doesn't have such restrictions, but 2C has further Notes, which seem to increase the complexity:

For Off-Peak travel via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see Restriction GK/GO/GN.
For Super Off-Peak travel via Hereford, Oxford & Newport see Restriction 2Q/GQ/GP.
For journeys to/via Birmingham on CrossCountry see restriction code 2V.
Journeys between London and Liverpool are not valid via Manchester

I've searched through the RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide, and more broadly in this Fares Advice & Policy forum but haven't found a definitive answer. The most relevant threads that have come up are these ones:
Coventry to Southampton - No "Any Permitted Route" fares?
No "Any Permitted" fare exists for a flow?
Excess where no Any Permitted fare exists
None of these three is recent and I remember there have been quite a few changes in the National Rail Conditions of Travel. So I would appreciate any advice and pointers.

 

[Kilopylae]

For the WM-restricted (Chiltern) fare, brfares shows unpublished restrictions such as "Not valid to depart LONDON EUSTON at any time on AVANTI WEST COAST", which does not increase my confidence level.

I wouldn't worry about this; it will be there to make sure electronic journey planners don't offer anything surprising.

The rule always used to be that a ticket via route X was valid for all cheaper routes Y, Z, etc but I couldn't point to chapter and verse to say for certain whether this has changed.

 

[Haywain]

The 'via London' fare is likely to give you maximum flexibility of route, and is valid via High Wycombe and Oxford as well as to Euston. Surprisingly, Reading to Waterloo, via Egham, is not on a mapped route!

 

[dd1]

Thank you both for the advice!

Yes, I was looking for the cheaper/more expensive route rule but with no success.

In the scenario where I'm getting the via London ticket but end up travelling on CrossCountry: "by the book" if I get to Reading then I should (basically) either ask a GWR train manager if they can take me on the direct service, or continue via Paddington?

Somehow the via High Wycombe scenario had this issue that I may need to argue the ticket is valid in front of Avanti employees (likely at Euston). I kind of thought this could be ... adventurous. I'm happy to believe that GWR are more likely to be pragmatic about it, if I have the "via London" ticket

 

[Haywain]

In the scenario where I'm getting the via London ticket but end up travelling on CrossCountry: "by the book" if I get to Reading then I should (basically) either ask a GWR train manager if they can take me on the direct service, or continue via Paddington?

There's no problem with travelling on CrossCountry or any other operator.

if I get to Reading then I should (basically) either ask a GWR train manager if they can take me on the direct service,

I think you mean SWR.

 

[dd1]

Yes, that's right, SWR. Thanks once again!

 

[Watershed]

I would like to buy an off-peak return from Kenilworth to Egham. I see three fares (and three routes) on brfares:

• ✠VIA HIGH WYCOMBE (restriction WM) set by Chiltern,
• ✠VIA LONDON (restriction 2C) set by Avanti, and
• VIA OXFORD (restriction 2V) set by Crosscountry.

There is no "Any Permitted" fare. I would like to have flexibility in the choice of route, however. The difference in price is not big enough to faff with an excess: that is, for this journey, I'm looking to simplify things and would be happy to buy the most expensive of the three (which is the Chiltern one). But I'm not clear whether it does actually entitle me to take the other two routes.

The "via High Wycombe" Off-Peak Return (SVR) is more expensive than the "via London" and "via Oxford" SVRs, and is therefore valid on both alternative routes in accordance with this section of the Routeing Guide:

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists.

It's worth noting that the "via London" SVR has time restrictions more comparable to the "via High Wycombe" Super Off-Peak Return so it isn't a completely even comparison.

In any case, the "via London" SVR is valid via High Wycombe because the permitted routes from Kenilworth to London include the Chiltern route. Journey planners will validate this.

The rules for journey planners don't include a section equivalent to the above quote from the Routeing Guide, so a journey planner would not offer a "via High Wycombe" fare via Euston or a "via London" fare via Oxford and Wokingham. Hence you would need to refer to the Routeing Guide text if you wanted to rely on this provision; you wouldn't be able to get an itinerary to validate it.

Confusing to say the least - "via High Wycombe" and "via London" actually mean "any route". Only the "via Oxford" fare has a route that accurately describes its validity!

For the WM-restricted (Chiltern) fare, brfares shows unpublished restrictions such as "Not valid to depart LONDON EUSTON at any time on AVANTI WEST COAST", which does not increase my confidence level. The 2C-restricted (via London) fare doesn't have such restrictions, but 2C has further Notes, which seem to increase the complexity:

These unpublished restrictions (which are only binding on journey planners, not on you as a passenger) arise from the time restriction code WM rather than the fare's route. Nevertheless they are intended to prevent "via High Wycombe" fares from being offered via Euston should there be any anomaly with the way the fare route restrictions are applied. Evidently they haven't considered a situation like this where the "via High Wycombe" fare is more expensive than the "via London" (or equivalent) Avanti fare.

 

[ChrisC]

I would like to buy an off-peak return from Kenilworth to Egham. I see three fares (and three routes) on brfares:

• ✠VIA HIGH WYCOMBE (restriction WM) set by Chiltern,
• ✠VIA LONDON (restriction 2C) set by Avanti, and
• VIA OXFORD (restriction 2V) set by Crosscountry.

There is no "Any Permitted" fare. I would like to have flexibility in the choice of route, however. The difference in price is not big enough to faff with an excess: that is, for this journey, I'm looking to simplify things and would be happy to buy the most expensive of the three (which is the Chiltern one). But I'm not clear whether it does actually entitle me to take the other two routes.

For the WM-restricted (Chiltern) fare, brfares shows unpublished restrictions such as "Not valid to depart LONDON EUSTON at any time on AVANTI WEST COAST", which does not increase my confidence level. The 2C-restricted (via London) fare doesn't have such restrictions, but 2C has further Notes, which seem to increase the complexity:


I've searched through the RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide, and more broadly in this Fares Advice & Policy forum but haven't found a definitive answer. The most relevant threads that have come up are these ones:
Coventry to Southampton - No "Any Permitted Route" fares?
No "Any Permitted" fare exists for a flow?
Excess where no Any Permitted fare exists
None of these three is recent and I remember there have been quite a few changes in the National Rail Conditions of Travel. So I would appreciate any advice and pointers.

I had a similar situation recently where I wanted to buy an “Any Permitted“ off-peak return from Alfreton to Glasgow. This was to enable me to travel at least one way via the Settle to Carlisle line. The only ticket available between Alfreton and Glasgow is a “via Lancaster” ticket. I found this most strange as a journey via Appleby, changing at Leeds and Carlisle, although taking longer, is the most direct route. Any permitted tickets are available from Nottingham and Chesterfield but for some reason not from the intermediate stations on the Erewash Valley Line.

In the end I decided to travel both ways via the Settle to Carlisle Line and saved a considerable amount by splitting at Hellifield. This worked out very well and with good connections the journey wasn’t too long, but if there had been any delays and a missed connection or cancellations it could have left me with no alternatives but a long wait. Since then I have discovered a way to get an any permitted fare that is reasonably priced but I’m not going to mention this here just in case it is removed.

 

[Haywain]

"by the book" if I get to Reading then I should (basically) either ask a GWR train manager if they can take me on the direct service,

Thinking about this a bit more, and taking into account @Watershed's post above, as the 'via London' fare is higher than the 'via Oxford' fare it must also be valid on the routes allowed by the latter, and the 'via Oxford' fare clearly must allow travel from Reading to Egham by the direct route so there is no need to ask the SWR guard before taking such a train.

 

[Watershed]

Thinking about this a bit more, and taking into account @Watershed's post above, as the 'via London' fare is higher than the 'via Oxford' fare it must also be valid on the routes allowed by the latter, and the 'via Oxford' fare clearly must allow travel from Reading to Egham by the direct route so there is no need to ask the SWR guard before taking such a train.

Yes, a fair point - I have updated my post.

 

[dd1]

I'm afraid I have some doubts about the quote from the Routeing Guide. Doesn't "it" in the sentence in boldface refer to An "any permitted" ticket from the previous sentence?

I remember seeing the "higher priced vs lower priced" principle somewhere, but it may have been just in forum conversations. It would be really nice if a general version could be unearthed!

 

[Haywain]

I'm afraid I have some doubts about the quote from the Routeing Guide. Doesn't "it" in the sentence in boldface refer to An "any permitted" ticket from the previous sentence?

I remember seeing the "higher priced vs lower priced" principle somewhere, but it may have been just in forum conversations. It would be really nice if a general version could be unearthed!

The simple fact is that geographically routed ticket can be exceeded to a different geographical route (so, via London to via Oxford); meaning that if the price of the 'new' fare is lower there is nothing to pay so it is, by default, valid as the worst that can happen is you get asked to pay the difference.

 

[redreni]

The simple fact is that geographically routed ticket can be exceeded to a different geographical route (so, via London to via Oxford); meaning that if the price of the 'new' fare is lower there is nothing to pay so it is, by default, valid as the worst that can happen is you get asked to pay the difference.

Since November 2025 it is no longer the case that the worst that can happen if you are off-route is that you are asked to pay the difference, You can be penalty fared, pursued in the civil courts or prosecuted as if no ticket were held. One of several anti-passenger changes in that particular revision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since November 2025 it is no longer the case that the worst that can happen if you are off-route is that you are asked to pay the difference, You can be penalty fared, pursued in the civil courts or prosecuted as if no ticket were held. One of several anti-passenger changes in that particular revision.

Indeed. Unless it's specifically called out elsewhere (which I don't think it is) this in my view removes the right to use a higher priced geographically routed ticket on a cheaper route, with a zero fare excess required before boarding, which can be hard to get!

The best plan now is therefore to buy the cheaper one and excess before boarding if taking a more expensive route. This is usually the cheapest way overall anyway!

 

[dd1]

Section A of the Routeing Guide seems to contain some relevant statements but I cannot find any that applies literally.

The closest, I think, is this one, under "CALCULATING EXCESS FARES": "Where a journey is undertaken by an alternative route to that for which the ticket was originally purchased, and for which a higher fare applies, additional payment is required to enable the customer to make or complete their revised travel arrangements." There is nothing about the case in which the fare is lower. On the positive side, I suspect that the word "complete" might be interpreted as "there is no requirement to buy prior to travel"! But I'm not clear about how this may interact with the previous paragraph in this document.

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid I have some doubts about the quote from the Routeing Guide. Doesn't "it" in the sentence in boldface refer to An "any permitted" ticket from the previous sentence?

I remember seeing the "higher priced vs lower priced" principle somewhere, but it may have been just in forum conversations. It would be really nice if a general version could be unearthed!

If you were being completely pedantic then yes, but as with all undefined contractual terms you have to undertake a purposive interpretation exercise. In other words, you have to look at what the drafter likely meant to achieve, not just the words as written.

Limiting the scope of that sentence to "Any Permitted" tickets would serve no clear commercial purpose as far as the TOCs are concerned.

More to the point, it would also mean that the sentence only applies to a small percentage of journeys nowadays, since "Any Permitted" fares have largely been eradicated in exchange for route "dot" fares and "via X" fares that are a restatement of the bleeding obvious (e.g. Cardiff to Bristol being "via Newport").

 

[dd1]

Thank you very much.