NIP Letter

[savinerella]

Hi,Could someone kindly assist me in writing back to NIP letter issued by GOVIA.Iam not good with English.I was travelling to London using off peak ticket during peak time which i didnt relaise to be a serious offense.part of my journey was booked off peak and part of it was peak ticket so the officer misunderstood me thinking that i took a entry and exit ticket as peak ticket and the rest of the journey to be off peak.
I would greatly thankful if someone can respond to me as soon as possible as i need to post the letter by today.All these days i was looking for people / lawyers who can help but found noone and found this useful post.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi,Could someone kindly assist me in writing back to NIP letter issued by GOVIA.Iam not good with English.I was travelling to London using off peak ticket during peak time which i didnt relaise to be a serious offense.part of my journey was booked off peak and part of it was peak ticket so the officer misunderstood me thinking that i took a entry and exit ticket as peak ticket and the rest of the journey to be off peak.

Welcome to the forum!

For absolute clarity, can you confirm:

The start and end point of the journey you made
The exact ticket you held
Where you were stopped?

You have received a letter asking for your side of the story. It is imperative you reply to this letter in a constructive manner. The normal guidance we give for replies is:

You should include the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before.

GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway) are normally quite pragmatic and willing to offer an out of court settlement to those who have not come to their attention before. This normally consists of the unpaid fare plus around £100-£150 in administrative costs. This feels like a fine but isn’t one and ends the matter without any criminal prosecution/criminal record.

If you post a copy of your draft response, we will offer amendments before you send it off to GTR.

 

[AlterEgo]

We'll need to know a lot more about your trip!

Where were you travelling from and to?
Which ticket/tickets exactly did you hold, and what did it cost?
Which train did you take?
Where were you stopped?
Did you use any railcard discount?
What do you mean by "part of my journey was booked off peak and part of it was peak ticket"?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

It would really help us if you can show us the letter that you are trying to reply to. Make sure you hide your name and address and anything else that might identify you. If you still have the train tickets, it would be good to see them too.

 

[savinerella]

Welcome to the forum!

For absolute clarity, can you confirm:

The start and end point of the journey you made
The exact ticket you held
Where you were stopped?

You have received a letter asking for your side of the story. It is imperative you reply to this letter in a constructive manner. The normal guidance we give for replies is:



GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway) are normally quite pragmatic and willing to offer an out of court settlement to those who have not come to their attention before. This normally consists of the unpaid fare plus around £100-£150 in administrative costs. This feels like a fine but isn’t one and ends the matter without any criminal prosecution/criminal record.

If you post a copy of your draft response, we will offer amendments before you send it off to GTR.

Hi Huntergreed,
Thank you for your kind response.The actual journey was from Chatham to London blackfriars.I used an app called Trainpal which gives discounted price because it splits the journey.I booked the ticket in 2 parts ,first part from chatham to london bridge and from London bridge to london blackfriars.From chatham to london bridge was an off peak one and second part is a normal one.The reason i split the ticket was there are multiple trains that go to london bridge and from london bridge i can take any train to blackfriars.Even if i miss one train i thought of taking another train that will take me to london bridge. But i ended up taking another train which covers many stations and was enquired at Higham.I had to take an additional ticket as i wanted to board the train in order not to miss it. I wanted to check with the officer if it was acceptable or not otherwise was ready to pay the penality. I didnt know this is a serious offense and would end up with this letter.I didnt want to miss the train and took an additional ticket from Chatham to Rochester to board the train which may be a big mistake made by me but i thought i could explain it to the officer and they will understand my situation,if not will give me penality.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi Huntergreed,
Thank you for your kind response.The actual journey was from Chatham to London blackfriars.I used an app called Trainpal which gives discounted price because it splits the journey.I booked the ticket in 2 parts ,first part from chatham to london bridge and from London bridge to london blackfriars.From chatham to london bridge was an off peak one and second part is a normal one.The reason i split the ticket was there are multiple trains that go to london bridge and from london bridge i can take any train to blackfriars.Even if i miss one train i thought of taking another train that will take me to london bridge. But i ended up taking another train which covers many stations and was enquired at Higham.

So you were asked to produce a ticket and subsequently questioned onboard at Higham station? Or did you leave/change at Higham?

Can you also confirm the time you travelled at (if you know the time the train you caught departed from Chatham, that would be even better).

 

[savinerella]

So you were asked to produce a ticket and subsequently questioned onboard at Higham station? Or did you leave/change at Higham?

Can you also confirm the time you travelled at (if you know the time the train you caught departed from Chatham, that would be even better).

Thats right. I was questioned at Higham station. I didnt change /leave the train at Higham. The train i took is from chatham station that started at 7.38AM wherein the ticket i bought is for the train that starts at chatham at 8.38Am.The officer told me that it is the time of the travel which is the concern. It is one hour ahead of the journey and that it will fall under peak hours.The officer wouldnt answer much.

 

[Huntergreed]

Thats right. I was questioned at Higham station. I didnt change /leave the train at Higham. The train i took is from chatham station that started at 7.38AM wherein the ticket i bought is for the train that starts at chatham at 8.38Am.The officer told me that it is the time of the travel which is the concern. It is one hour ahead of the journey and that it will fall under peak hours.The officer wouldnt answer much.

Given you were stopped at 08:13, I can now see that you travelled on a peak train with an off-peak ticket.

Unfortunately, it is an criminal offence to travel in a train without a valid ticket, and GTR would be within their rights to prosecute under the byelaws in the magistrates court.

GTR are generally pragmatic and will offer an out of court settlement to those who have not come to their attention before. To maximise the likelihood of this outcome, I refer you to my previous advice:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2023 ==

You have received a letter asking for your side of the story. It is imperative you reply to this letter in a constructive manner. The normal guidance we give for replies is:

You should include the following points in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before.

GTR (Govia Thameslink Railway) are normally quite pragmatic and willing to offer an out of court settlement to those who have not come to their attention before. This normally consists of the unpaid fare plus around £100-£150 in administrative costs. This feels like a fine but isn’t one and ends the matter without any criminal prosecution/criminal record.

If you post a copy of your draft response, we will offer amendments before you send it off to GTR.

 

[AlterEgo]

I had to take an additional ticket as i wanted to board the train in order not to miss it.

That doesn't make sense. You bought the ticket at 7:40am to operate the barriers, surely, because your ticket wasn't valid at that time, right?

This is why they have reported you for prosecution; you purchased an otherwise unnecessary ticket to allow access to the platform in order to board a train your ticket wasn't valid on.

 

[savinerella]

Given you were stopped at 08:13, I can now see that you travelled on a peak train with an off-peak ticket.

Unfortunately, it is an criminal offence to travel in a train without a valid ticket, and GTR would be within their rights to prosecute under the byelaws in the magistrates court.

GTR are generally pragmatic and will offer an out of court settlement to those who have not come to their attention before. To maximise the likelihood of this outcome, I refer you to my previous advice:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2023 ==

Hi, can you tell me waht details i have to provide in the letter? Do i have to explain what actually happened? Also do i have to write in the space that is provided at the back of the NIP letter? Or can i continue in a white paper. Also do i have to send the tickets too? If so am afraid that would cause even more confusion.

 

[alholmes]

Looking at the tickets, the Chatham-Swanscombe and Swanscombe-London Terminals are one booking, and wouldn’t be valid at the time you were travelling.

The London Bridge-London Blackfriars are a separate booking, and would be a red flag to any ticket inspector or gateline staff. Firstly, Blackfriars is covered by the Swanscombe-London Terminals ticket anyway, and secondly the cost of that ticket is much more expensive than using Oyster or contactless.

The Chatham-Rochester ticket appears to have been bought on the day, presumably to get through the barrier at Chatham.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi, can you tell me waht details i have to provide in the letter? Do i have to explain what actually happened? Also do i have to write in the space that is provided at the back of the NIP letter? Or can i continue in a white paper. Also do i have to send the tickets too? If so am afraid that would cause even more confusion.

You can use a separate piece of paper if you wish and should not include the tickets.

Your letter should contain the following points:

- Apologise for what happened
- State what you have learned from the incident
- Assure them this will not happen again
- Offer to pay the unpaid fare and their administrative fees in investigating the matter

Keep it relatively concise and don’t give a sob story. Post a draft on here and we’ll give some feedback.

 

[savinerella]

That doesn't make sense. You bought the ticket at 7:40am to operate the barriers, surely, because your ticket wasn't valid at that time, right?

This is why they have reported you for prosecution; you purchased an otherwise unnecessary ticket to allow access to the platform in order to board a train your ticket wasn't valid on.

Hi Alter,I agree with you . I was in a rush to board the train and hence took the ticket to operate the barriers. I wanted to talk to the officer inside the train and was ready to pay the fine if he wouldnt agree with the ticket i was holding.

 

[jfollows]

Hang on a minute, if the tickets are "off peak" tickets but being used when they're not valid simply for time of day (otherwise the correct day) then the National Conditions of Travel state (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf):

9.5 Where you:
9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;
you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

If this is the case, and I may have mis-read the details, then any kind of penalty including a penalty fare is inappropriate.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hang on a minute, if the tickets are "off peak" tickets but being used when they're not valid simply for time of day (otherwise the correct day) then the National Conditions of Travel state (https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf):

If this is the case, and I may have mis-read the details, then any kind of penalty including a penalty fare is inappropriate.

But as the OP purchased a ticket to get through the barrier, presumably this is now being viewed as intent to avoid paying the full fare and being treated as such.

 

[savinerella]

Looking at the tickets, the Chatham-Swanscombe and Swanscombe-London Terminals are one booking, and wouldn’t be valid at the time you were travelling.

The London Bridge-London Blackfriars are a separate booking, and would be a red flag to any ticket inspector or gateline staff. Firstly, Blackfriars is covered by the Swanscombe-London Terminals ticket anyway, and secondly the cost of that ticket is much more expensive than using Oyster or contactless.

The Chatham-Rochester ticket appears to have been bought on the day, presumably to get through the barrier at Chatham.

I agree with you Alholmes.I booked the tickets in a hassle.

 

[jfollows]

But as the OP purchased a ticket to get through the barrier, presumably this is now being viewed as intent to avoid paying the full fare and being treated as such.

I'm happy to admit that I have not read and understood all the details in this thread, apologies for that, but there is no issue of "intent" in the National Conditions of Travel I quoted.
But I just wanted to flag this, apologies if it's inappropriate in this case.

 

[savinerella]

But as the OP purchased a ticket to get through the barrier, presumably this is now being viewed as intent to avoid paying the full fare and being treated as such.

The difference between the actual ticket price and my ticket summing up would be less by around £2-£3

 

[Haywain]

I'm happy to admit that I have not read and understood all the details in this thread, apologies for that, but there is no issue of "intent" in the National Conditions of Travel I quoted.
But I just wanted to flag this, apologies if it's inappropriate in this case.

I think that the train company would argue that this is a case of doughnutting, in that the tickets for Chatham to Rochester and London Bridge to Blackfriars have been purchased to operate barriers. The latter ticket wouldn't even be necessary if there was any real belief that the ticket to and from Swanscombe were in fact valid at the time of travel, as Blackfriars is a London Terminal station. To me, it looks a lot like intending to avoid paying the correct fare. And then perhaps refunding the "unused" Off Peak tickets?

 

[savinerella]

I think that the train company would argue that this is a case of doughnutting, in that the tickets for Chatham to Rochester and London Bridge to Blackfriars have been purchased to operate barriers. The latter ticket wouldn't even be necessary if there was any real belief that the ticket to and from Swanscombe were in fact valid at the time of travel, as Blackfriars is a London Terminal station. To me, it looks a lot like intending to avoid paying the correct fare. And then perhaps refunding the "unused" Off Peak tickets?

Hi Haywain, I have shown all my tickets that i have to the officer if i intend to refund the unused off peak tickets. The officer saw all the tickets that i posted earlier and i gave all my details correctly.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi Haywain, I have shown all my tickets that i have to the officer if i intend to refund the unused off peak tickets. The officer saw all the tickets that i posted earlier and i gave all my details correctly.

Yes but I think the point is, you weren't expecting to be checked by revenue protection, else you wouldn't have purchased short tickets to operate the barriers at each end, exposing your own ruse.

The advice given by @Huntergreed remains relevant though and you should follow it in relation to drafting your letter.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Whatever your "intent" or intentions, you did not have the correct ticket for the time you boarded the train; i.e. you boarded an earlier train which operates during peak time (and attracts a higher fare)

Follow the advice upthread without delay and hope you get off "lightly" with an out of court settlement

 

[savinerella]

Hi All,
Thank you for all your valuable advises and suggestions.Please find atatched the reply i would like to give them and please correct me of any mistakes.

 

[Huntergreed]

My first comment is that the letter is much longer than it needs to be.

They know the details of the incident and don’t need to be retold these.

I’ve made some edits below.

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to your letter. I'm writing to apologise for my actions on 28-06-2023, when I boarded the train to London Blackfriars without a valid ticket.

I profoundly regret my decision and any inconvenience it may have caused Govia Thamslink Railway. At the time of the incident, I cooperated with the inspector, explained him the situation, showed him all the tickets i have bought and provided my personal information, and was ready to pay the fine or penalty right away.

I understood from the officer that the tickets i purchased looked to operate the barriers. I want to explain why i purchased the tickets in that manner. I recently started travelling to london and it was my 4rth time on 28th June to travel to London. I take a bus from home to station and from there to London. Due to road works and train cancellations i couldnt arrive to the train station on time there by missing the train i wanted to take thereby reaching late to work ,the previous times to London.I didnt claim for a refund when the trains got cancelled.So for 28th travel i split the journey from Chatham to London Bridge and London Bridge to Blackfriars with a thought that whichever train i take i will change at London bridge as i wansnt sure when i will arrive train station and what would be the next avaialble train i will take.After reaching the train station i realised the tickets i booked are off peak tickets. In a rush to board the train i took a ticket to operate the barrier outward with a intention to discuss with the officer and expalin him the situation and if the ticket is still invalid then i wanted to buy a new ticket from the officer or pay penality whichever is applicable.

I was completely unaware am now aware of the fact that travelling with an invalid ticket is a serious offence and of how much fare evasion costs the railway. I realised that i have made a big mess with the tickes i bought them as i bought them after a very long day the previous day mistake. I thought i can explain it all to the officer and boarded the train.My only intention to board the train with invalid ticket is that i can explain the situation to the officer as i completely dont know the rules.I worried paying unnecessarily and wanted to avoid the refunds or claims.

I accept responsibility for my actions, and I have learned a valuable lesson from this incident: I completely understand the importance of adhering to ticketing regulations, as well as the negative consequences of noncompliance, and I am committed to ensuring that this never happens again.

I am hoping the matter can be resolved without the need for legal action and I would like to pay the outstanding fee for the travel, as well as the railway company's administrative expenditures in dealing with this problem, which may include the time and effort invested by Govia Thamslink Railway to handle the fare evasion issue this incident.

I apologise once more for my actions and any inconvenience they may have caused. I hope we can achieve an agreement that is acceptable to both parties, and I shall take care to abide by all ticketing rules and regulations in future.

I would redraft based upon the above. Post another draft when you have.

 

[savinerella]

My first comment is that the letter is much longer than it needs to be.

They know the details of the incident and don’t need to be retold these.

I’ve made some edits below.


I would redraft based upon the above. Post another draft when you have.

Hi Huntergreed,Please find another draft below. Do i need to attach the tickets as well?


Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to your letter. I'm writing to apologise for my actions on 28-06-2023, when I boarded the train to London Blackfriars without a valid ticket.

I profoundly regret my decision and any inconvenience it may have caused Govia Thamslink Railway.

I am now aware of the fact that travelling with an invalid ticket is a serious offence and of how much fare evasion costs the railway. I realised that i have made a mistake.

I accept responsibility for my actions, and I have learned a valuable lesson from this incident: I completely understand the importance of adhering to ticketing regulations, as well as the negative consequences of noncompliance, and I am committed to ensuring that this never happens again.

I am hoping the matter can be resolved without the need for legal action and I would like to pay the outstanding fee for the travel, as well as the railway company's administrative expenditures in dealing with this problem, which may include the time and effort invested by Govia Thamslink Railway to handle this incident.

I apologise once more for my actions and any inconvenience they may have caused. I hope we can achieve an agreement that is acceptable to both parties, and I shall take care to abide by all ticketing rules and regulations in future.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hi Huntergreed,Please find another draft below. Do i need to attach the tickets as well?

No need to attach tickets. Just the letter with your response included.

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to your letter. I'm writing to apologise for my actions on 28-06-2023, when I boarded the train to London Blackfriars without a valid ticket.

I profoundly regret my decision and any inconvenience it may have caused Govia Thamslink Railway. I am now aware of the fact that travelling with an invalid ticket is a serious offence and of how much fare evasion costs the railway.

I realise that I have made a mistake and I accept full responsibility for my actions. I have learned a valuable lesson from this incident: I and completely understand the importance of adhering to ticketing regulations, as well as the negative consequences of noncompliance . I am committed to ensuring that this never happens again.

I am hoping the matter can be resolved without the need for legal action and I would like to offer to pay the outstanding fee for the travel fare as well as the railway company's your administrative expenditures in dealing with this problem which may include the time and effort invested by Govia Thamslink Railway to handle this incident.

I apologise once more for my actions and any inconvenience they may have caused. I hope we can achieve an agreement that is acceptable to both parties settle the matter without the need for court action and I shall take care to abide by all ticketing rules and regulations in future.

This is much better. More concise and to the point. I would amend this as above.

 

[savinerella]

No need to attach tickets. Just the letter with your response included.

This is much better. More concise and to the point. I would amend this as above.

Thank you so much to everyone here in this forum. I didnt know where to go and found this forum to be very useful and helpful. Thanks again.

 

[Huntergreed]

Thank you sir. Should i attach the tickets as well to the letter?

No - you do not have to nor should you attach the tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2023 ==

Thank you so much to everyone here in this forum. I didnt know where to go and found this forum to be very useful and helpful. Thanks again.

No worries - please do let us know if/when you hear back from GTR. It’s good for us to know how cases are dealt with and how much settlements are being offered for so we can continue to provide the best help we can in future.

 

[savinerella]

No - you do not have to nor should you attach the tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2023 ==


No worries - please do let us know if/when you hear back from GTR. It’s good for us to know how cases are dealt with and how much settlements are being offered for so we can continue to provide the best help we can in future.

Sure. Thanks again.