Night Tube launch "deferred"

[plcd1]

DLR is franchised and is up in 2021. IIRC only renewed at the start of this year but the night tube had already been announced by then, so why night running wasn't put in as part of the agreement I don't know.

That's an easy one to answer. The CGL consortium, that built the Lewisham link, only gets paid back by 2021 and it was not affordable for TfL to "buy them out" as they did with the London City Airport / Woolwich Arsenal link. I think CGL have contractual rights to access their infrastructure to maintain it to the required standard so DLR can run trains. Trying to change the access arrangements is a step too far late in a contract term because CGL will want to be paid a fortune for changing it. There is also a big risk that reducing access time would give CGL a reason for not achieving the right asset condition / residual life in the infrastructure they will hand over to TfL in 2021. There will probably be arguments about the state of what is handed over anyway but there is no logic in taking a decision that gives a contractor another excuse for not having achieved what they were required to do.

It makes huge sense to not get in the way of CGL and to then change things for the next concession in 2021 when the entire infrastructure will be in TfL hands and interfaces are simpler. TfL can then ensure the next concessionaire plans for night operation in their bids and it is all properly assessed and managed.

 

[NYCSubway137]

The whole Night Tube dispute in a nutshell. Personally to me as an American transit fan and a New Yorker, this is quite ridiculous and disappointing. Give Londoners and tourists a break!

http://www.wharf.co.uk/news/local-news/night-tube-dispute-everything-you-10351800

 

[Nym]

Can I ask how many 'normal londoners' who work unsocial shifts you think Night Tube will truly help?

 

[Envy123]

Can I ask how many 'normal londoners' who work unsocial shifts you think Night Tube will truly help?

Places like Pret a Manger require people to get there at 5am. The current tube situation would not allow that.

 

[Nym]

Places like Pret a Manger require people to get there at 5am. The current tube situation would not allow that.

Hence night buses...

Only on Sat / Sun mornings?

Also, could you quantify that beyond an anecdotal statement?

 

[Agent_c]

The whole Night Tube dispute in a nutshell. Personally to me as an American transit fan and a New Yorker, this is quite ridiculous and disappointing. Give Londoners and tourists a break!

http://www.wharf.co.uk/news/local-news/night-tube-dispute-everything-you-10351800

New York's subway was designed for this sort of running with 4 tracks. The tube was not.

 

[Envy123]

Hence night buses...

Only on Sat / Sun mornings?

Also, could you quantify that beyond an anecdotal statement?

Well, they work weekends as well. It would alleviate the need to use slow night buses to get to central London, even if it's just 2 days a week.

On Glassdoor, we have many people saying that they expect crew members to be there at 5am. I rejected the job because I had to be there at 5am, which meant about 3 hours each way.

 

[StateOfPlay]

They need to go ahead at some point as the trains have been repainted.

 

[jopsuk]

Just vinyls. But an example of quite how backwards TfL managed to get this- generally polite to advertise this sort of thing AFTER you've settled the staffing arrangements.

 

[glbotu]

New York's subway was designed for this sort of running with 4 tracks. The tube was not.

What? I mean, the 4 tracking of the NYC Subway has nothing to do with 24hr operations. I guess it's convenient for possessions, but the stalling over night tube isn't about possessions. It's about hours worked and safety. I don't know what the conditions are like for NYC Subway drivers with regards to 24hr operation, although the US doesn't really do trade unions and it's much harder to strike there, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "put up or shut up" deal at some point.

 

[miami]

What? I mean, the 4 tracking of the NYC Subway has nothing to do with 24hr operations. I guess it's convenient for possessions, but the stalling over night tube isn't about possessions. It's about hours worked and safety. I don't know what the conditions are like for NYC Subway drivers with regards to 24hr operation, although the US doesn't really do trade unions and it's much harder to strike there, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "put up or shut up" deal at some point.

How many train crashes are there on the NY metro?

 

[MikeWh]

What? I mean, the 4 tracking of the NYC Subway has nothing to do with 24hr operations. I guess it's convenient for possessions, but the stalling over night tube isn't about possessions. It's about hours worked and safety. I don't know what the conditions are like for NYC Subway drivers with regards to 24hr operation, although the US doesn't really do trade unions and it's much harder to strike there, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "put up or shut up" deal at some point.

I think you've slightly missed the point. The New York subway was cited as a proper way to do 24 hour running, 7 days a week. The poster was rubbishing our feeble efforts to introduce this on just 2 nights. 4 tracks has everything to do with 24/7 operation.

 

[glbotu]

I think you've slightly missed the point. The New York subway was cited as a proper way to do 24 hour running, 7 days a week. The poster was rubbishing our feeble efforts to introduce this on just 2 nights. 4 tracks has everything to do with 24/7 operation.

How many train crashes are there on the NY metro?

Right, I see. I appreciate that having a 4 tracked subway allows you to do 7 days a week night running, but I don't see what this has to do with the current disputes between drivers and managers in London. The problem with getting night tube off the ground is that London Underground want to do this with a change to the existing working conditions of drivers, which they perceive to be unsafe.

As I very explicitly stated in my post, I don't know what working conditions are like on the NY Subway. I wasn't suggesting the NY Subway was unsafe either. The point I was making is that at the point at which the NY Subway became 24/7, it would have likely been easier to deal with any potential industrial disputes that arose (regardless of what those disputes were about), because of generally weaker trade unions.

For a more direct answer, since WW2, the NY Subway has had 34 Accidents, the London Underground has had 18 (according to Wikipedia).

 

[Mojo]

What? I mean, the 4 tracking of the NYC Subway has nothing to do with 24hr operations. I guess it's convenient for possessions, but the stalling over night tube isn't about possessions. It's about hours worked and safety. I don't know what the conditions are like for NYC Subway drivers with regards to 24hr operation, although the US doesn't really do trade unions and it's much harder to strike there, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "put up or shut up" deal at some point.

I would suggest that the union representing staff on the New York Subway is stronger than that representing LU workers, given that the overwhelming majority of trains still have a guard ("Conductor") and that much of the organisation hasn't seen any meaningful organisational change in years.

 

[fIIsion]

Right, I see. I appreciate that having a 4 tracked subway allows you to do 7 days a week night running, but I don't see what this has to do with the current disputes between drivers and managers in London. The problem with getting night tube off the ground is that London Underground want to do this with a change to the existing working conditions of drivers, which they perceive to be unsafe.

Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the problem with getting night tube off the ground has far more to do than just changing the working conditions of drivers. Many operational and non-operational employees have issues with how their respective working conditions/rotas are going to change under the proposals put forward. Drivers are only part of the dispute, yet appear to be the sole focus of the media coverage surrounding night tube.

 

[455driver]

Without wanting to sound like a broken record, the problem with getting night tube off the ground has far more to do than just changing the working conditions of drivers. Many operational and non-operational employees have issues with how their respective working conditions/rotas are going to change under the proposals put forward. Drivers are only part of the dispute, yet appear to be the sole focus of the media coverage surrounding night tube.

That's because in the eyes of the general public and most posters on this forum, train drivers are seen as nothing more than nasty, overpaid, militant w-nkers so the popular press just continue with that opinion!

 

[A-driver]

That's because in the eyes of the general public and most posters on this forum, train drivers are seen as nothing more than nasty, overpaid, militant w-nkers so the popular press just continue with that opinion!

It's also because they are the easy target. A press report about the poor agency minimum wage cleaning staff striking because they are being forced to work worse hours may get some support which will backfire horribly for the right wing press. Far easier to pick on someone who is paid a decent wage as its dead easy to turn those paid less against them.

 

[Antman]

Can I ask how many 'normal londoners' who work unsocial shifts you think Night Tube will truly help?

A significant number I would imagine but obviously nobody can give an exact figure? Strange question!

 

[Busaholic]

Can I ask how many 'normal londoners' who work unsocial shifts you think Night Tube will truly help?

For those who regularly work nights throughout the week, I doubt very many. They will have got used to their night bus routes, which will still run, and most homes (especially) and places of work will be nearer a bus stop than a tube station. Price will also be a factor, with so many earning a pittance, and bus fares only being a fraction of tube fares, particularly on the longer routes. I'm not anti Night Tube, I'm sure it will be a success in terms of numbers carried, maybe not quite so much in terms of profit and anti-social behaviour.

 

[Taunton]

The New York subway was cited as a proper way to do 24 hour running, 7 days a week. The poster was rubbishing our feeble efforts to introduce this on just 2 nights. 4 tracks has everything to do with 24/7 operation.

It's a regular myth that the New York Subway can have 24 hour running because of 4 tracks. Not a lot of the network has 4 tracks. I am aware that in Midtown Manhattan, where the bulk of the tourist usage takes place, a number of lines (not all) do so, but this changes quite rapidly, and indeed even in the financial area of Lower Manhattan there are very few 4-track sections. As you get out to the outer boroughs much of the network is just 2-track, including elevated sections with surprisingly little in the way of walkways, yet the whole network has 24 hour operation. Other US cities without 4-track sections also have 24 hour operations.

What New York does have is plenty of crossovers to facilitate short single line sections at night/weekends. Crossovers are somehow seen as "too expensive" for anything but the minimum in London nowadays, yet elsewhere providing them does not seem an issue.

 

[jopsuk]

Crossovers are somehow seen as "too expensive" for anything but the minimum in London nowadays, yet elsewhere providing them does not seem an issue.

you say this as if LU have systematically removed crossovers; they haven't. It's never been part of how the Underground has operated.

 

[Dstock7080]

you say this as if LU have systematically removed crossovers; they haven't. It's never been part of how the Underground has operated.

As part of 4LM - Four Lines Modernisation, the District Line will have many crossovers and reversing facilities removed:
Ealing Broadway; sidings removed.
Putney Bridge; bay already removed (to become WB road) other reversing facilities removed.
Bromley-by-Bow; crossover removed.
Gloucester Rd; crossover imminent to go (delayed from July)
Hornchurch; crossover to go in January 2016.
East Ham; crossover to be removed.
Aldgate East; crossover to be removed.
Tower Hill; bay road to become through- connected at east end to EB & WB tracks.
Mansion House; bay road to be removed (already unavailable for S Stock).
Embankment; crossover to be relocated west of station, to become diamond.
South Kensington; crossover to be removed.
Parsons Green; route from EB to 21/22Rd removed; route from WB to 23/24Rd removed.
East Putney; emergency crossover removed.
West Kensington; crossover to be relocated further west.
Acton Town; route from WB to 26Rd to be removed.

 

[matt_world2004]

How many train crashes are there on the NY metro?

Fall asleep at the handles on the NY Metro derail a train do some damage to the trackwork and the stock and you get hit with a 51 day suspension. Not Prision, not dismissal a 51 day suspension. They also get paid a huge amount more than tube drivers.

 

[A-driver]

It's a regular myth that the New York Subway can have 24 hour running because of 4 tracks. Not a lot of the network has 4 tracks. I am aware that in Midtown Manhattan, where the bulk of the tourist usage takes place, a number of lines (not all) do so, but this changes quite rapidly, and indeed even in the financial area of Lower Manhattan there are very few 4-track sections. As you get out to the outer boroughs much of the network is just 2-track, including elevated sections with surprisingly little in the way of walkways, yet the whole network has 24 hour operation. Other US cities without 4-track sections also have 24 hour operations.



What New York does have is plenty of crossovers to facilitate short single line sections at night/weekends. Crossovers are somehow seen as "too expensive" for anything but the minimum in London nowadays, yet elsewhere providing them does not seem an issue.

Crossovers are not particularly simple for London Underground though as large parts of it are in single bore tunnels which don't always run parallel to the opposite running line. Putting in regular crossovers would require major work with new tunnels bored etc-I would imagine just getting the tunnelling machines in place to start doing this would be a big and very disruptive job.

 

[Taunton]

Crossovers are not particularly simple for London Underground though as large parts of it are in single bore tunnels which don't always run parallel to the opposite running line. Putting in regular crossovers would require major work with new tunnels bored

It's only a minority of the network that is actually in single bore tunnels, and even there crossovers, provided when the lines were built, have obviously been removed over time as you pass locations where they once were - by Bank on the Central, by Edgware Road on the Bakerloo, etc. I understand even Piccadilly Circus on the Bakerloo can't be used any more because somehow it's seen as a derailment hazard. Not providing any at Canning Town (open air) on the JLE means that with any issue or maintenance work on the section north to Stratford the line has to be curtailed at North Greenwich and the cross-river section, for which no parallel alternative exists, is lost. That's just inappropriate. Look at the Moscow Metro, which has a scissors every few stations

 

[NYCSubway137]

New York's subway was designed for this sort of running with 4 tracks. The tube was not.

I know the exact reason why the Tube was not designed for running 4 tracks. It's mainly because the Tube was basically meant to just cut through the ground making sure that didn't disrupt valuable gas or water lines. Also, look at central London's streets. They look like endless labyrinths and paths!

 

[jopsuk]

As part of 4LM - Four Lines Modernisation, the District Line will have many crossovers and reversing facilities removed:
Ealing Broadway; sidings removed.

not a crossover, sidings at a terminus too short for new stock

Putney Bridge; bay already removed (to become WB road) other reversing facilities removed.

longer platforms for new stock

Bromley-by-Bow; crossover removed.

wasn't clear of platforms, not much use

Gloucester Rd; crossover imminent to go (delayed from July)

not used?

Hornchurch; crossover to go in January 2016.

extremity of network, little utility

East Ham; crossover to be removed.

One stop from Barking.

Aldgate East; crossover to be removed.

Whitechapel more functionally useful

Tower Hill; bay road to become through- connected at east end to EB & WB tracks.

that's an enhancement, not a loss of function!

Mansion House; bay road to be removed (already unavailable for S Stock).

too short

Embankment; crossover to be relocated west of station, to become diamond.

Enhancement

South Kensington; crossover to be removed.

not used?

Parsons Green; route from EB to 21/22Rd removed; route from WB to 23/24Rd removed.

might have a point here?

East Putney; emergency crossover removed.

last used?

West Kensington; crossover to be relocated further west.

so, erm, not removed, presumably made more useful

Acton Town; route from WB to 26Rd to be removed.

not sure with this. Ever used?

Try again without padding it out?

 

[Busaholic]

It's only a minority of the network that is actually in single bore tunnels, and even there crossovers, provided when the lines were built, have obviously been removed over time as you pass locations where they once were - by Bank on the Central, by Edgware Road on the Bakerloo, etc. I understand even Piccadilly Circus on the Bakerloo can't be used any more because somehow it's seen as a derailment hazard. Not providing any at Canning Town (open air) on the JLE means that with any issue or maintenance work on the section north to Stratford the line has to be curtailed at North Greenwich and the cross-river section, for which no parallel alternative exists, is lost. That's just inappropriate. Look at the Moscow Metro, which has a scissors every few stations

Picc Circus on the Bakerloo not being able to be used seems crazy to me - it will not be worth trying to provide a service on the line should something occur south of Picc Circus: that's the entire central London section out of action. Surely something could be done to stop chances of a derailment?!

 

[jon0844]

Just vinyls. But an example of quite how backwards TfL managed to get this- generally polite to advertise this sort of thing AFTER you've settled the staffing arrangements.

Been to the transport museum recently? They've got the night tube map up there in an exhibition, without mentioning the slight issue in that it's not running...

 

[A-driver]

Been to the transport museum recently? They've got the night tube map up there in an exhibition, without mentioning the slight issue in that it's not running...

It's how TfL tend to work at the moment-keep staff in the dark and build up anticipation for new changes with the public to provoke the unions into action which could be completely avoided by communicating with staff and sort out working practices before releasing info to the public. That way the unions call a dispute and TfL can run to their friends in the newspapers and ensure the unions are painted as the evil militant ones refusing to allow these brilliant ideas through. TfL released night tube info publically and thenactually refused point blank to answer staff and union questions as to how it was going to affect them until the very last minute-hence the strikes.