Night sleepers the future.

[Hadleywood]

Having driven the night trains out of KX in the 70s and 80s I wonder how much longer the Euston sleeper and particularly the Cornish Riviera will last. I hear that both make a loss every year.
A shame I think if they go.

 

[6Z09]

Having driven the night trains out of KX in the 70s and 80s I wonder how much longer the Euston sleeper and particularly the Cornish Riviera will last. I hear that both make a loss every year.
A shame I think if they go.

Don't imagine they ever really paid their way.
The Caledonian Sleeper is definitely a " Political Issue " so will survive on that basis.

 

[BBF3]

Don't imagine they ever really payed their way.
The Caledonian Sleeper is definitely a " Political Issue " so will survive on that basis.

Same goes for the Cornish sleeper too. Patterns of working may have changed, so there is less emphasis on people getting to west Cornwall for a day's work or a 9am meeting, but it would be a brave person who pulled a plug on it. Cornwall's MPs may be all 'blue' now but 20 years ago none were. It may run at a loss, but it's well patronised.

Plus the whole direction of travel across Europe is for bringing back sleeper services on environmental grounds.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Several times last week all berths were booked out for Cornwall. No need to say any more.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Several times last week all berths were booked out for Cornwall. No need to say any more.

Well there is, if it's swallowing up huge amounts of money that could be better spent elsewhere. Although The Night Riviera is considerably cheaper to run than the Scottish one.

 

[6Z09]

Several times last week all berths were booked out for Cornwall. No need to say any more.

Neither will ever make any money though, will they?
Both will no doubt survive as they are political hot potatoes.
Some might even suggest that they could be seen as the "personal transport" of some politicians, landed gentry and broadcasters !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neither will ever make any money though, will they?
Both will no doubt survive as they are political hot potatoes.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Lowlander (Edinburgh/Glasgow) fell victim to HS2. But the Highlander, possibly minus Aberdeen, is probably too political to lose.

 

[williamn]

There are tons of services that lose money, not just sleepers.

 

[6Z09]

There are tons of services that lose money, not just sleepers.

This thread relates to the viability of sleeper services does it not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This thread relates to the viability of sleeper services does it not?

I think the point was that just because a service is losing money does not mean its withdrawal is likely.

 

[HSTEd]

Unless someone can work out how to pack far more passengers into the same size of train, sleepers are never going to look economically attractive - especially in a country as small as the UK where the vast majority of journeys are much shorter than a whole night.

The Cornish Riviera for example runs purposefully slowly with huge stops at various stations.
It would be cheaper for society to run fast evening trains and subsidise hotels at destination stations.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Same goes for the Cornish sleeper too. Patterns of working may have changed, so there is less emphasis on people getting to west Cornwall for a day's work or a 9am meeting, but it would be a brave person who pulled a plug on it. Cornwall's MPs may be all 'blue' now but 20 years ago none were. It may run at a loss, but it's well patronised.

Plus the whole direction of travel across Europe is for bringing back sleeper services on environmental grounds.

EXACTLY

 

[irish_rail]

Cornish is the safer of the two operations and politically more so.
New locos for it from 2024 (you heard it here first, just not sure what the loco will be yet!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cornish is the safer of the two operations and politically more so.
New locos for it from 2024 (you heard it here first, just not sure what the loco will be yet!)

If the Lowlander was killed off by HS2, two sets of CAF stock could go west too.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are tons of services that lose money, not just sleepers.

But nothing loses money quite like the sleepers.

 

[HSTEd]

But nothing loses money quite like the sleepers.

Technically Merseyrail, TfW Rail and the rest of Scotrail on a per passenger-km basis are more heavily subsidised than Caledonian Sleepers are.

I'll get my coat.

 

[Bald Rick]

Technically Merseyrail, TfW Rail and the rest of Scotrail on a per passenger-km basis are more heavily subsidised than Caledonian Sleepers are.

I'll get my coat.

Per passenger km, but not per passenger.

 

[nlogax]

I fear domestic sleepers are on an ever-expanding mission to lose money. Has anyone come up with a winning financial model for sleepers that depart or terminate partially or wholly in the UK?

 

[irish_rail]

But nothing loses money quite like the sleepers.

At least with the Riviera it is crewed by GWR crews and therefore does not require its own guards and drivers employed specifically to drive or guard it. That saves some money. And the overall amount of money it adds to tourism etc in Cornwall (one of the very poorest parts of the UK) makes it worth every penny.

 

[zwk500]

Has anyone come up with a winning financial model for sleepers that depart or terminate partially or wholly in the UK?

I suspect the only one that ends up profitably is the VSOE model - find a small number of incredibly wealthy people, turf everybody else off and stock up with as much wine as you can.

 

[Bald Rick]

That saves some money.

Not really. It comes down to how many crew hours you need to run it, not who runs it.

And the overall amount of money it adds to tourism etc in Cornwall (one of the very poorest parts of the UK) makes it worth every penny.

Well we can never really know the answer to that question. But i suspect that if the sleeper didn’t run, the 70-90% of the passengers would still go to Cornwall, either by day train or car, and therefore the loss to Cornwall would be negligible.

 

[Sleepy]

Not really. It comes down to how many crew hours you need to run it, not who runs it.




Well we can never really know the answer to that question. But i suspect that if the sleeper didn’t run, the 70-90% of the passengers would still go to Cornwall, either by day train or car, and therefore the loss to Cornwall would be negligible.

Since the demise of HST stock to Cornwall the Night Riv. is the only way I'll travel there - couldn't face 5 hours on a daytime service.

 

[Bald Rick]

Since the demise of HST stock to Cornwall the Night Riv. is the only way I'll travel there - couldn't face 5 hours on a daytime service.

Possibly because of your user name!

Having done the sleeper down there once myself, I couldn’t face anything but the day train (or the A303 / A30).

 

[Chester1]

If the Lowlander was killed off by HS2, two sets of CAF stock could go west too.

Its the obvious solution. I can't see how the Lowland Sleeper can compete with 3 hour 40 minute journey time after HS2 phase 1. Politically the opening of HS2 would be excellent cover for cancelling the Lowland Sleeper and using its stock (or what can fit) for the Night Riveria. The refurb of the Mark III sleepers will be getting old by then. Due to the difference in size between the Caledonian and Riveria sets the highland sleeper could be changed to two shorter length services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Due to the difference in size between the Caledonian and Riveria sets the highland sleeper could be changed to two shorter length services.

Killing the Aberdeen (by far the quietest, and also susceptible to HS2 to an extent as it's the closest to the Central Belt of the three) and running the remaining Highlander as a simple two-portion train is in my view the likely outcome. Still more complex than the Riviera, but a lot simpler than it is now. Just in case anyone really wants to, it could allow bookings to Edinburgh and Glasgow Queen St - the timings are no worse than you presently get at Preston southbound.

 

[Bald Rick]

I can't see how the Lowland Sleeper can compete with 3 hour 40 minute journey time after HS2 phase 1.

3h40 is a post Phase 2b time.

After Phase 1+2a, it should be just under 4 hours, depending on stopping pattern.

 

[jon0844]

Unless someone can work out how to pack far more passengers into the same size of train, sleepers are never going to look economically attractive - especially in a country as small as the UK where the vast majority of journeys are much shorter than a whole night.

The Cornish Riviera for example runs purposefully slowly with huge stops at various stations.
It would be cheaper for society to run fast evening trains and subsidise hotels at destination stations.

I always thought that they should have used airline first class sleeping 'pods' for standard class sleeping, allowing far more people to fit in any given coach - and providing a decent level of comfort and privacy, then retaining cabins for first class.

You could then take a lot more people on a train.

 

[Bald Rick]

I always thought that they should have used airline first class sleeping 'pods' for standard class sleeping, allowing far more people to fit in any given coach

Leaving aside the well rehearsed safety issues of lie flat beds that aren’t transverse, it doesn’t actually allow many more people in any given coach.

 

[Chester1]

3h40 is a post Phase 2b time.

After Phase 1+2a, it should be just under 4 hours, depending on stopping pattern.

Under four hours is probably still sufficient excuse. If the choice is new Riveria stock, cutting the Riveria or the Lowland Sleeper, I reckon both a Conservative or Labour led government would get rid of the Lowland Sleeper. There is a huge incentive to keep the Riveria stock going as long as possible to avoid the decision.

This is of course assuming Scotland doesn't become independent. I can't see the SNP prioritising links with London. I doubt an English, Welsh and Northern Irish government would be prepared to spend any money subsidising a sleeper service that primarily benefits Scotland.

 

[Horizon22]

Doubt the Cornish Riviera is going anyway. It's fairly well patronised, supported politically and indeed financially by Cornwall Council (who want it to run). The extremities of the UK are probably the only worthwhile sleepers these days anyways.