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Night Riviera Post GW Electrification

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Manchester77

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So I was thinking after Great Western Elctrification, what will happen to Night Riviera? Will it get scrapped like the old East Coast sleeper during electrification or will the 57s get swapped somewhere to 90s?

Any thoughts?
 
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Rich McLean

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So I was thinking after Great Western Elctrification, what will happen to Night Riviera? Will it get scrapped like the old East Coast sleeper during electrification or will the 57s get swapped somewhere to 90s?

Any thoughts?

Nothing has been confirmed as of yet, but its likely to stay the way it is for the time being. However, how long they can keep those 57's going for is anyone's guess
 

ainsworth74

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So I was thinking after Great Western Elctrification, what will happen to Night Riviera?

I imagine it will continue much as it does now. Possibly during the electrification it might be operating out of Waterloo as part of a diversionary route. As for loco swaps I don't think they'll bother to be honest, but I could be proven wrong as I don't think there's been anything official on the topic.
 

Kali

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Given it goes to Penzance and the wires aren't, can't see it being electric hauled. Would seem a suitable retirement position for some HST powercars, with some compatibility work for the ETS. Or hire whatever DRS are offering, or something. It will probably die when the sleeper stock itself becomes life expired or at least uneconomical to fix - I guess the Mk3s could be rebogied/doored & rewired still.
 

fgwrich

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Given it goes to Penzance and the wires aren't, can't see it being electric hauled. Would seem a suitable retirement position for some HST powercars, with some compatibility work for the ETS. Or hire whatever DRS are offering, or something. It will probably die when the sleeper stock itself becomes life expired or at least uneconomical to fix - I guess the Mk3s could be rebogied/doored & rewired still.

Unless a tag on order is produced if Scotrail (or caledonian sleeper) get's round to ordering new vehicles. Im sure Siemens could downsize some of their european designes if the monies right.
 

crewmeal

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Years ago when Brymon Airways operated Newquay Plymouth Gatwick, route, the company decided it wasn't making any money and wanted to drop it. However MPs had other ideas and Brymon kept it until it was absorbed into British Airways. Maybe if enough MPs use it (which I believe they do) then it will be kept.
 

Rich McLean

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Years ago when Brymon Airways operated Newquay Plymouth Gatwick, route, the company decided it wasn't making any money and wanted to drop it. However MPs had other ideas and Brymon kept it until it was absorbed into British Airways. Maybe if enough MPs use it (which I believe they do) then it will be kept.

Plymouth Airport is already shut, and the land has been bought for housing development pending planning permission :(
 

fgwrich

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They've had one attempt at trying to ditch it already, having had it included as a 'optional extra' in the 2006 + Greater Western Franchise already. Fortunately, First Group decided to keep it going, albeit with the removal of the Plymouth portion Mk3 as despite the fact it's actually a loss making service, It does very well for Devon & Cornwall and FGW as a whole. Indeed since, it's had a good refurbishment, and as TEW has said in the other Night Riviera thread, has now regularly gone up to 4/5 Mk3 Sleepers in each service. Another reason why i'd like to see First retain the GW franchise!
 

ainsworth74

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having had it included as a 'optional extra' in the 2006 + Greater Western Franchise already. Another reason why i'd like to see First retain the GW franchise!

Before the competition was cancelled the Night Riviera was a specified part of the future GW franchise so it would have been a franchise requirement so it wouldn't have mattered who won it would have stayed. Of course now that the competition has been cancelled it's possible that it'll go back to 'optional extra' status but I'd hope not.
 

jimm

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Just because its full doesnt mean it makes money though.

Well Andrew Roden, who led the campaign to save the Night Riviera, posted here http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=489.315 last October that it is indeed making a profit these days.

After a few years childrearing I'm back in the railway writing/PR game and back using the NR... isn't it wonderful how this allegedly loss making service is fully booked and profitable now?
 

HSTEd

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Problem is the platforms at Paddington and Penzance are not long enough to make it any longer.

Which is annoying because making it longer with more seated vehicles would reduce the losses.
HST Power cars are probably the future as they would allow the baggage compartment to be removed from the seated vehicle and would eliminate the need for a second 57 at the Paddington end.
 

jimm

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Problem is the platforms at Paddington and Penzance are not long enough to make it any longer.

Which is annoying because making it longer with more seated vehicles would reduce the losses.
HST Power cars are probably the future as they would allow the baggage compartment to be removed from the seated vehicle and would eliminate the need for a second 57 at the Paddington end.

Did you read my post about what Andrew Roden says about the train being profitable - it isn't losing money. It makes money!

And I'm pretty sure you could just squeeze a nine-car sleeper formation into both stations if you so wished but FGW only has 10 sleeping cars anyway, so the point is rather academic, with just one sleeper out of traffic on Friday and Sunday nights currently when eight-car trains are running.

Exactly how much space do you think the brake compartment in a Mk3 BFO occupies? This is a picture of one http://www.marstonparkway.org.uk/images/BFO.JPG?292 showing that it is two seating bays, so that's all of 12 seats.

And where is the train manager supposed to go without a BFO in the train? The TGS was invented because it was decided that making guards ride in HST power cars wasn't acceptable. Never mind that the wiring of an HST formation is quite different to MK3 loco-hauled stock and HSTs use bar couplings, not buckeyes.

And why are ageing HST power cars the future? Two elderly, expensive to maintain locos per train instead of one? Why not a 67, which seems to do a decent enough job on sleepers in Scotland, or a shiny new 68, which DRS may want to find guaranteed regular work for?
 

HSTEd

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Because FGW will have to have HST power cars on the routes to the South West anyway.

So they can be any two power cars pulled from their pool of power cars for the Cornish services.
This tends to ameliorate the reliability issues that will supposedly afflict HST power cars.

The train manager could get one of those offices like those used on South West train services, which is a cubicle that uses rather less than 12 seats (and even if you only get 8 seats extra or somesuch, that is a significant improvement on the capacity of the seating vehicles in total)

Bar couplings to Buck eyes is not going to be an insanely expensive retrofit job especially since you only have to do a handful of vehicles that will always be used on the ends of the formation, (have a spare so if one breaks you can splice it in quickly).

And Mk3 loco hauled stock can easily be converted into HST trailers as they require no new equipment and it is merely a rewiring job, which they are probably going to need anyway as part of the refurbishment that they will need relatively soon.
And shortages of sleeping cars is irrelevent since what is desperately needed is more seated vehicles to enable that traffic to be expanded as it is rather easier to make money on than berth sleepers.
 

jimm

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Because FGW will have to have HST power cars on the routes to the South West anyway.

So they can be any two power cars pulled from their pool of power cars for the Cornish services.
This tends to ameliorate the reliability issues that will supposedly afflict HST power cars.

The train manager could get one of those offices like those used on South West train services, which is a cubicle that uses rather less than 12 seats (and even if you only get 8 seats extra or somesuch, that is a significant improvement on the capacity of the seating vehicles in total)

Bar couplings to Buck eyes is not going to be an insanely expensive retrofit job especially since you only have to do a handful of vehicles that will always be used on the ends of the formation, (have a spare so if one breaks you can splice it in quickly).

And Mk3 loco hauled stock can easily be converted into HST trailers as they require no new equipment and it is merely a rewiring job, which they are probably going to need anyway as part of the refurbishment that they will need relatively soon.
And shortages of sleeping cars is irrelevent since what is desperately needed is more seated vehicles to enable that traffic to be expanded as it is rather easier to make money on than berth sleepers.

What is it about people on this forum trying to find expensive solutions for problems that just don't exist?

At the moment, no-one has actually decided what the long-term, or even medium-term train fleet for West Country services will be. Will someone be willing to foot the bill for converting HSTs with power doors, toilet tanks etc, etc? Or will they decide just buying more bi-mode IEPs will be less hassle? So there may not be any HST power cars anyway. In which case a modern diesel loco will be just what you need...

An office for a train manager sounds like a TGS, so that's all of one extra seating bay once you've smashed about a perfectly serviceable purpose-built BFO - a few extra seats are hardly going to make a huge difference to the bottom line frankly.

I suspect that rather than trying to turn loco-hauled coaches into an HST sleeper - and who would want a berth near a power car, you can feel every bump in a TGS or coach H on HSTs - passengers would probably prefer money to be spent on things like providing showers on the train.

As for your claim that what is needed are more seats, an article about this train in Rail last month gave me the impression that what is actually needed are more sleeper berths, with the indication that they could probably sell out six coaches going west on Friday nights and east on Sunday nights if they had the stock available. The Night Riviera already offers far more seats in the BFO and FO combined (though you only pay a standard class fare to use them) than the Scotrail sleeper portions. What makes you think there is demand for more seats?
 

Donny Dave

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I wonder if the "Campaign for Users of Night Trains" and their, erm, rather explicit, acronym will ever re-appear .... :shock: :oops: :lol:
 

The Ham

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What is it about people on this forum trying to find expensive solutions for problems that just don't exist?

At the moment, no-one has actually decided what the long-term, or even medium-term train fleet for West Country services will be. Will someone be willing to foot the bill for converting HSTs with power doors, toilet tanks etc, etc? Or will they decide just buying more bi-mode IEPs will be less hassle? So there may not be any HST power cars anyway. In which case a modern diesel loco will be just what you need...

An office for a train manager sounds like a TGS, so that's all of one extra seating bay once you've smashed about a perfectly serviceable purpose-built BFO - a few extra seats are hardly going to make a huge difference to the bottom line frankly.

I suspect that rather than trying to turn loco-hauled coaches into an HST sleeper - and who would want a berth near a power car, you can feel every bump in a TGS or coach H on HSTs - passengers would probably prefer money to be spent on things like providing showers on the train.

As for your claim that what is needed are more seats, an article about this train in Rail last month gave me the impression that what is actually needed are more sleeper berths, with the indication that they could probably sell out six coaches going west on Friday nights and east on Sunday nights if they had the stock available. The Night Riviera already offers far more seats in the BFO and FO combined (though you only pay a standard class fare to use them) than the Scotrail sleeper portions. What makes you think there is demand for more seats?

Of course if the sleepers need a refit at about the time that the IEP's are coming online and there is a need for more capacity why not just refit a could of HST's to be sleepers and/or add an additional late night service which leaves London later than 7.

That way the sleepers can remain in service until the HST's are ready which means that there is no loss of capacity during the refit. Although refitting the HST's would be fairly costly, I would suggest not much more so than using the existing fleet.

It would also mean that the refit could be done over a slightly longer time frame meaning a better job can be done and more thought can go into putting in the latest creature comforts (wi-fi, power sockets, showers, etc.).

Over the medium term it could be fairly cost neutral as GW would have a more standardised fleet of trains which would mean that maintenance would be cheaper. With the longer term looking fairly promising as by the time the HST's become life expired (around 2030) the whole line should hopefully could be electrified meaning that a whole new electric (possibly based on IEP if it turns out to be good, as then if there any gaps even an all electric IEP could limp through them at 40mph which would be no problem on the sleeper service) sleeper could be built.
 

Kali

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HSTs use alliance knuckle couplers, not fixed bars - swapping to those from standard coaching stock couplers is a known process, because they're still building HST trailers from LHCS versions. However the ETS is a bit more involved, the systems are different and that would probably kill any idea of HST power. At some point the sleepers will have to be rebuilt anyway.

67s have terrible tractive effort - although still considerably higher than a HST powercar - and have 2/3ds the ETS index of a 57; I presume the last bit is why FGW still use them. If the 68 comes as a shrunk passenger Eurolight then it should have the same index as a 57/6, so that's an obvious replacement.
 

Essexman

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Problem is the platforms at Paddington and Penzance are not long enough to make it any longer.

Which is annoying because making it longer with more seated vehicles would reduce the losses.
HST Power cars are probably the future as they would allow the baggage compartment to be removed from the seated vehicle and would eliminate the need for a second 57 at the Paddington end.

Are you sure?
Platform 1 at Paddington is long. Often used to take 13 coach trains in days before HSTs.
Last time I used the sleeper from Penzance there was plenty of spare platform to walk beyond the locomotive and take photos.
Or is there a tachnical (signals?) reason I don't know about.
 

Kali

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They chopped quite a bit off the buffer end of the platforms to build the new concourse - fairly sure that was after HSTs, I can just about remember it. I've no idea how long the platform blocks are now, it should be in the SA though surely.

How long are the platforms at Waterloo? ( not the old International ones ). You could run it out of Euston, too. Can you get to the Salisbury lines from the Victoria ones easily anywhere?
 
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