Night Riviera 43s?

[m79900]

If the buffing gear was removed from the stock, could the sleeper be class 43 hauled? They'd only need 4 which GW have on their books anyway. It'd also save the complicated shunting movements at either end and at lower speed running could be more fuel efficient than double 57s. I'm sure there's reasons this can't take place, so feel free to pick holes in my argument!

 

[Nym]

If the buffing gear was removed from the stock, could the sleeper be class 43 hauled? They'd only need 4 which GW have on their books anyway. It'd also save the complicated shunting movements at either end and at lower speed running could be more fuel efficient than double 57s. I'm sure there's reasons this can't take place, so feel free to pick holes in my argument!

They could haul it, but the passengers would be rather cold and in the dark…

 

[m79900]

They could haul it, but the passengers would be rather cold and in the dark…

Okay, fair enough. So are the electrical systems different?

 

[Towers]

Okay, fair enough. So are the electrical systems different?

They are indeed! Loco hauled MK3 stock is, and always has been, famously incompatible with the three phase train supply provided by class 43s. HST trailers, whilst being fundamentally the same as standard MK3 coaches, have a completely different electrical system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would make less sense now we're on 80x but I did long wonder why they didn't create a couple of sleeper HSTs. You would need a motor-alternator set to convert the power but one could be installed in the van area of one or both power cars.

 

[Nym]

It would proberbly be more productive to make some generator cars for the rake so any loco can be used.

 

[Zomboid]

Put an ETS generator into some DVTs (no doubt much easier said than done) and simplify operations at the same time.

 

[xotGD]

IIRC, the ecs off the up sleeper was hauled from Paddington to Old Oak Common by a pair of back-to-back power cars on at least one occasion.

 

[zwk500]

It'd also save the complicated shunting movements at either end and at lower speed running could be more fuel efficient than double 57s.

Are the shunt moves that complicated? AIUI the set works with Class 57s on either end from Reading to London Empty, and then drops off the rear 57 at Reading on it's way back through as 1C50. not sure what the norm is at Penzance - does it propel onto Long Rock or does the 08 come out and grab it?
In the other direction, 1A50 stops at Reading to attach the 57 on the rear and then the empty is hauled back from Paddington to Reading Top/Tail. So there's no shunting at Paddington, minimal shunting at Penzance, and 2 moves at Reading from the Train to the depot and back. The second 57 might even be shut down or reduced to just idling when attached to the rear of the train.

I am slightly surprised that the 'extra' 57 hasn't been replaced by a 90 or similar but I guess keeping 1 or 2 isolated on the GW isn't a great use of resources, as you'd need to get a 66 to trip them across to Wembley Yard if they were needed elsewhere on the electrified network.

 

[Backroom_boy]

I was on a train about 4 years ago where a 57 was dead hauled at the back for what felt like the entire journey; every brake application seemed to have the engine crash into the coaches and wake me up.

Then on the return journey the train was cancelled short at Reading as there wasn't another 57 ready to attach on the back for the last leg into London.

I definitely would have liked a double ended unit train on that trip!

 

[irish_rail]

I was on a train about 4 years ago where a 57 was dead hauled at the back for what felt like the entire journey; every brake application seemed to have the engine crash into the coaches and wake me up.

Then on the return journey the train was cancelled short at Reading as there wasn't another 57 ready to attach on the back for the last leg into London.

I definitely would have liked a double ended unit train on that trip!

It's a bugger to drive when there is 130 dead tonnes of weight coupled at the back, I for one hate it when there's a dead loco on the back.

 

[Towers]

It's a bugger to drive when there is 130 dead tonnes of weight coupled at the back, I for one hate it when there's a dead loco on the back.

Tell us you’re a Proper Driver without telling us you’re a Proper Driver

 

[popeter45]

It would make less sense now we're on 80x but I did long wonder why they didn't create a couple of sleeper HSTs. You would need a motor-alternator set to convert the power but one could be installed in the van area of one or both power cars.

if dedicated HST stock an alternator set would not have been needed i assume, would have even made sence for the van area to be used for larger luggage
could be the case that as many sleeper trains still used mark 2's for non sleeping portions (as seen even on the cally pre mark 5's) the idea was for just drop in replacing the mark 1 sleepers rather than replace the entire train
also droping coaches at some stops like plymouth and exeter would have been a struggle if you have to remove a rear power car multiple times a night for this

 

[43096]

It would make less sense now we're on 80x but I did long wonder why they didn't create a couple of sleeper HSTs. You would need a motor-alternator set to convert the power but one could be installed in the van area of one or both power cars.

Motor-alternator? You're wanting to make it DC, not the other way round! By the time there were power cars available for this you'd have used power converters.

In any case, it would be deeply bonkers to take a 415V three phase supply, turn it into DC only to then feed it through an MA set to turn it back into 415V three phase, purely because of the train supply cabling when you have to fit through control cabling anyway.

The time to have done this would have been around the time the Scottish sleepers were moving over to Mark 5s. That way there would have been a float of Mark 3 sleepers to go for conversion (remove MA sets and make them 415V three phase, fit 36-way MU cables) and refurbishment, with the day coaches of the sleeper being replaced by HST trailers.