Night intercity services

[A S Leib]

As an alternative to the ECML sleeper proposal (thread), how plausible could overnight intercity services be, with the main purpose being to keep people moving overnight without necessarily being quick, and without providing accommodation? They could either only serve major stations so engineering works can be easily avoided if necessary (e.g. no Grantham, Newark or Retford – I know that's a bad example as Peterborough – Sleaford already isn't a through service on Sundays, but hopefully I've communicated the principle) or just being cancelled for engineering works and maybe serving stations with few or no regular long-distance services (e.g. the existing 18:13 Saturday service from Crewe to Berkhampstead and Hemel Hempstead).

For comparison's sake, I think this is the most recent map of overnight ICEs in Germany.

 

[RobShipway]

As an alternative to the ECML sleeper proposal (thread), how plausible could overnight intercity services be, with the main purpose being to keep people moving overnight without necessarily being quick, and without providing accommodation? They could either only serve major stations so engineering works can be easily avoided if necessary (e.g. no Grantham, Newark or Retford – I know that's a bad example as Peterborough – Sleaford already isn't a through service on Sundays, but hopefully I've communicated the principle) or just being cancelled for engineering works and maybe serving stations with few or no regular long-distance services (e.g. the existing 18:13 Saturday service from Crewe to Berkhampstead and Hemel Hempstead).

For comparison's sake, I think this is the most recent map of overnight ICEs in Germany.

Other than the times when the Sleeper services past, I do not think that you will ever get night Inter-City services due to works quite often being done overnight by Network Rail to do maintenance.

 

[baz962]

Depends on the route and popularity I guess. EMR used to have a 00.15 from London st pancras to Derby and it was practically empty.

 

[zero]

Depends on the route and popularity I guess. EMR used to have a 00.15 from London st pancras to Derby and it was practically empty.

I took it last summer and it was half full (to Leicester - practically empty to Derby), didn't seem to be a special evening or anything.

 

[baz962]

I took it last summer and it was half full (to Leicester - practically empty to Derby), didn't seem to be a special evening or anything.

Definitely rare. I used to get it home regularly and there were more staff than passengers.

 

[NoRoute]

how plausible could overnight intercity services be, with the main purpose being to keep people moving overnight without necessarily being quick, and without providing accommodation?

Who, as in group of potential travelers, would want to use such a service?

If there's no accommodation so effectively no option to get some good sleep, it means arriving very tired, making the following day a write-off. I can't see it appealing to business travellers who are likely to want to work the following day. It doesn't seem very attractive to leisure travellers, who would likely want to be active exploring the destination. Seems like it would be an inconvenient, poor quality, type of service so would have to be sold at a low cost, likely in competition with alternatives such as coaches.

If it provided pods, or capsules for sleeping then I can see it being potentially much more attractive, boarding in the evening, getting up ready the next day at your destination.

 

[A S Leib]

Who, as in group of potential travelers, would want to use such a service?

If there's no accommodation so effectively no option to get some good sleep, it means arriving very tired, making the following day a write-off. I can't see it appealing to business travellers who are likely to want to work the following day. It doesn't seem very attractive to leisure travellers, who would likely want to be active exploring the destination. Seems like it would be an inconvenient, poor quality, type of service so would have to be sold at a low cost, likely in competition with alternatives such as coaches.

If it provided pods, or capsules for sleeping then I can see it being potentially much more attractive, boarding in the evening, getting up ready the next day at your destination.

That's fair. Put like that the only possible group of people I could see wanting to do that are those travelling long distances to see friends or family, and even then there's alternatives (e.g. if said relatives have a spare room).

 

[Trainguy34]

If it provided pods, or capsules for sleeping then I can see it being potentially much more attractive, boarding in the evening, getting up ready the next day at your destination.

Assuming they used Mark 5 Coaches, leaving 2.6 metres for the ends for gubbins/toilet facilities, that would leave 19.8 metres for capsules lengthways, assuming they were about 1.1 metres wide, that would be 18 capsules that were 1.9 metres long, leaving 75cm for a corridor.

Assuming a 10-car train with 3 carriages of pods, that would be 54 pods and then 3 of the seated cars, seating 90 overall, aswell as 1 PRM Car, with 6 rooms so 6-9 people, aswell as the regular sleeper car, formed of 10 rooms holding 2 people, therefore 10-20 people.

After some quick maths, it has a minimum capacity of 160 people with a max of 173.

 

[NoRoute]

Assuming they used Mark 5 Coaches, leaving 2.6 metres for the ends for gubbins/toilet facilities, that would leave 19.8 metres for capsules lengthways, assuming they were about 1.1 metres wide, that would be 18 capsules that were 1.9 metres long, leaving 75cm for a corridor.

Assuming a 10-car train with 3 carriages of pods, that would be 54 pods

The pictures of pod or capsule hotels I've seen have them stacked, typically in 2 layers, so that would be something around 18 pods per level in a carriage, 2 levels, 36 pods in total per carriage.

 

[Trainguy34]

The pictures of pod or capsule hotels I've seen have them stacked, typically in 2 layers, so that would be something around 18 pods per level in a carriage, 2 levels, 36 pods in total per carriage.

I wasn't sure how tall they are, it would need luggage storage though.

 

[D6130]

Assuming they used Mark 5 Coaches,

In that case there would be no chance of anyone getting any sleep, what with all the shoogling, rattling and banging from the bogies!

 

[philosopher]

That's fair. Put like that the only possible group of people I could see wanting to do that are those travelling long distances to see friends or family, and even then there's alternatives (e.g. if said relatives have a spare room).

Passengers travelling to airports for 6am or 7am flights potentially could use such trains. However most of largest UK airports, including Heathrow are not on the InterCity network and so would require transferring to more local trains or other modes of transport. Therefore this market is probably much better served by coaches.

 

[Townsend Hook]

deleted

 

[JonathanH]

After all, National Express and Megabus run overnight services and manage to make a profit doing so.

We aasume they make a profit, but the whole operation is dependant on maximising the use of their vehicles. A lot of the overnight coaches go back out on early departures from their destinations. Crucially they can divert around overnight closures on the motorway network where necessary.

As a student in Newcastle some years ago I would certainly have appreciated an overnight train option when I was travelling home to the South Coast; I would often travel down on the Friday night and back up on the Sunday night on NatEx to get a full weekend at home.

Do you think it would have been better to use a train than a coach for this journey? A late night ride on a day train with the interior lights on full isn't a great experience. Riding the 2330 from Kings Cross to Leeds, the 0134 from Euston to Milton Keynes, the 0002 from Brighton to Bedford, the 0105 Waterloo to Southampton, and their ilk doesn't give practical opportunity for sleeping, and in each case it is still the middle of the night when you arrive.

 

[A S Leib]

Passengers travelling to airports for 6am or 7am flights potentially could use such trains. However most of largest UK airports, including Heathrow are not on the InterCity network and so would require transferring to more local trains or other modes of transport. Therefore this market is probably much better served by coaches.

So that effectively limits it to Gatwick and Luton (already have overnight weekday services), Manchester (I think TPE has - at least in theory - no more than a 3-hour gap between York–Manchester services overnight but I can't remember whether or not they serve the airport), Birmingham, Southampton, Southend and Stansted. Bristol seems to have a 24/7 bus service between Temple Meads and the airport but I agree that any transfer at that time of night probably makes coaches more desirable.

 

[D6130]

Manchester (I think TPE has - at least in theory - no more than a 3-hour gap between York–Manchester services overnight but I can't remember whether or not they serve the airport),

They do serve the airport in theory....but are frequently bustituted from there to Piccadilly due to engineering works. Incidentally, they are scheduled to run via the Calder Valley, usually stopping at Brighouse for a bus connection to/from Huddersfield.

 

[zero]

Do you think it would have been better to use a train than a coach for this journey? A late night ride on a day train with the interior lights on full isn't a great experience. Riding the 2330 from Kings Cross to Leeds, the 0134 from Euston to Milton Keynes, the 0002 from Brighton to Bedford, the 0105 Waterloo to Southampton, and their ilk doesn't give practical opportunity for sleeping, and in each case it is still the middle of the night when you arrive.

When I was a student I did most of my work between 2330 and 0400... and the lights could be dimmed / dimmer than during the day.

 

[6Gman]

Assuming they used Mark 5 Coaches, leaving 2.6 metres for the ends for gubbins/toilet facilities, that would leave 19.8 metres for capsules lengthways, assuming they were about 1.1 metres wide, that would be 18 capsules that were 1.9 metres long, leaving 75cm for a corridor.

Assuming a 10-car train with 3 carriages of pods, that would be 54 pods and then 3 of the seated cars, seating 90 overall, aswell as 1 PRM Car, with 6 rooms so 6-9 people, aswell as the regular sleeper car, formed of 10 rooms holding 2 people, therefore 10-20 people.

After some quick maths, it has a minimum capacity of 160 people with a max of 173.

Once you start talking about pod cars you are back with the issue of expensive, specialist vehicles making only one journey in each 24 hours.

And the economics fall down a deep, dark hole.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Later departures north should be a consideration especially when England are at Wembley on a Friday/ Saturday evening.

 

[telstarbox]

If you take London to Manchester which is one of the biggest markets not covered by the Caledonian Sleeper:

You can leave tonight at 22.03, arriving 00.39 which is already quite late if you want to do something in the morning
Miss that and the 23.00 Megabus arrives 03.30 which is even worse;
Or the first train tomorrow morning departs 06.10, arriving 08.25.

The Leeds timings are similar - last one tonight dep 23.33 and first one tomorrow dep 05.55. Also an all shacks Megabus at 23.45 (6 hours!)

So there's not much market left between the existing trains - for anyone who needed to be in Manchester or Leeds and productive at say 06.00 they'd probably go up tonight to a cheap hotel. The coach is already covering the very price sensitive market.

 

[Ken H]

The big one is London - Birmingham. People would like a night out at a show in London then get a train back. There are 2 routes so it could be one or the other to aid reliability. Everywhere else is too far for day coaches at that time of night/

 

[The Planner]

Later departures north should be a consideration especially when England are at Wembley on a Friday/ Saturday evening.

Chiltern are masters at this.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Chiltern are masters at this.

Chiltern are very good and I use them myself and drive down part way. But they serve Birmingham which is very much not Northern England.